lake okeechobee spoonplugging

[david powell]

[quote="floridaboy"]WELL, DAVID...YOU GOT THIS STARTED,
Well floridaboy I knew I could,and I hope it helps you.
Kenny those are some awesome bass.
John you are 100% correct I have never fished a florida anything.I'm sure my fishing world is small compared to some of you guys. That being said, in one of my flatland res. that i fish it gets very low a lot of times.It has one creek arm that has maybe a dozen channel bends,only one bend do i catch a lot of bass and bigun's.In some years this place is completely DRY,but as soon as the water gets back in so do the bass,and the one bend is where they hold. Have walked it when dry,cannot say why they love that one bend. Now back to the long breakline, as I go outside and look at my yard,if it were under water, even with a slight elevation it is a flat.Granted i'm not a fish,but I think those fish are at 11' because its 11' not because of a very slight rise.BTW in terms of degree's that rise is less than 4 tenths of one degree.Now Buck tells us that a fish will not cross a flat viod of sign post,so I think there is things there we cannot see but the fish do.John said I would zig zag the deepest water in the area and then start over. I believe that would be the best presentation,for i'm sure there are small breaks that the fish are holding around. A bottom content change is a breakline(muckline).......... Where the muckline makes a turn is a break. Again I will agree,and still i have to beleive not only could it be a muckline,but perhaps a color change from light bottom to a darker bottom, dirt to clay etc.It could be many things, no one knows for sure.But if looking for your L O N G breakline you find the fish, mission accomplished.
( i KNOW I'M HARDHEADED)
DAVID

[spnplgr]

David, you appear to have some knowledge I would like to put in my knowledge database, if you will share.

Apparently, you know exactly how wide a breakline can be, when measured horizontally. This would be the distance from the top of the breakline to the bottom of the breakline. Another way to state the request would be to ask what distance is too great for the fish to use? I assume you can tell me how wide it can be in terms of feet, yards or some other measurement of distance. Somehow, I missed that information when I was going through the study material.

Thanks in advance for the information. It's good stuff.

Good fishing

[david powell]

BREAKLINE=A line on the bottom where there is a definite increase or decrease in depth,either sudden or gradual. Now i have to admit that i didn't know that the word gradual was in the definition.Now in the home study course volume 3 structures,breaks,breaklines page 11. He states BREAKLINES are areas on the bottom WHERE THERE IS A MORE RAPID OR SUDDEN CHANGE IN DEPTH.Doesn't say gradual!Now page 29 The figure above is the top view of a lake.the bottom has a gentle slope out to a channel or deep hole as in a natural lake.
He states the situation is is not exactly flat as most would view it,but as far as the fish is concerned it is a flat-ONLY TILTED SLIGHTLY.then he states what i posted about small details on the bottom they may use.Page 30 Well i'm not going to type it . So while I won't say i was wrong maybe just not 100% correct.
DAVID

[John Bales]

David, Stubborn may not be the right word to describe you. Most of my learning experiences have come from making mistakes. Mr. Perry's written material can be compared to what is in the Bible. Not from a biblical standpoint but ones interpretation of it. A lot of the material will not be understood until you have experienced it. I dont know how many times I have re-studied his material and was blown away by what I read. I would then wonder how I missed that part the last time it was gone through. Later in years I knew that I had not had enough experience in that subject matter and just couldnt absorb the knowledge into my brain. Last season I had to go through the whole green book and the home study course and also what they call the blue book to prepare for the talk in Chicago. This was the first time ever that there was not a thing that was written that I did not understand. By being able to understand for the first time, I was also able to see where I was the weakest and what I needed to do to get better at that part of the game. An open mind is an important thing in learning. Your fellow spoonpluggers are the most helpful people on the face of the earth. Try going to any other fishing web-site and see what they are talking about. They are not sharing fishing information. They are talking about size color and action. They are talking about quick fix lures and fancy wrapped packages. Listen to your fellow spoonpluggers. They are speaking the truth. John

[Fran Myers]

David, I would also like to point out that in spending considerable amount of time thinking about this thread is that these subtle breaklines aren't exclusive to Florida. Many lakes where I live even the ones that have GREAT water color (less than 5") and depths greater than 50', sometimes the fish just aren't where you'd think they would be. You could race around your lake pounding your mapped structures getting nothing or you could follow the next guideline, which is "You're not fishing deep enough". It should be common knowledge to all that as the you go the deeper structure gets more and more subtle.

Now looking back to the Lakes and Rivers I fish, there isn't one that doesn't have the structure situation described we are arguing about. Until helping John prepare last years Chicago Presentation, I would not have considered even looking for this type of breakline/structure situation, let alone fishing it.

David, I would suggest that when your 1 bend out of 9 or 12 stops producing that you backtrack towards deeper water. I'm sure there will be a deeper hole that the fish pull back to. If it's a large hole, then you need to look within the deeper section. It maybe just a large flat that you need to criss cross to check out OR you may find that you will have those less than 5 inch breaklines. I know I found them.

Keep in mind that what we are discussing is pretty high JuJu. MAJOR damage to a fish populations can occur with this information.
This kind of situation is definitely not for the beginner, especially if the subtle variations are in deep water. Going into my 5th year of Spoonplugging I think I am just now starting to think I may be able to attempt these structure situations.

All this talk makes me wonder whether you don't believe what people are saying, so you think it can't be true OR my second thought is because you can't troll that accurately then no one must be able to. Either way all of the actions are up to you. I happen to know a number of people who would be hugely PISSED that we are even discussing this in a public forum.

[david powell]

Now looking back to the Lakes and Rivers I fish, there isn't one that doesn't have the structure situation described we are (arguing about).Didn't realize anyone was arguing,so far all I'e done is state what Mr. Perry has written.Don't see how you can deny this.

All this talk makes me wonder whether you don't believe what people are saying, so you think it can't be true.
To be honest I haven't seen anyone post anything on here that is not in the study course.

I happen to know a number of people who would be hugely PISSED that we are even discussing this in a public forum.
AGAIN WHAT ARE WE DISCUSSING THAT IS NOT AVAILABLE TO EVERYONE.
my second thought is because you can't troll that accurately then no one must be able to.

I'm pretty sure i troll just fine,but if i do you into trouble placing markers will take care of that.
DAVID

[spnplgr]

David, instead of answering my question, you quote the Home Study Series. I read the pages you referenced and the answer to my question is not there. So, I have concluded you do not know the answer. I admit I knew this when I asked the question. So, I have decided to make one attempt to help you understand the issue. Here goes.

Since you are quoting the Home Study Series, take a look on page 16, paragraph 4, Volume three. Concentrate on the first three sentences. That is about as definitive as any statement you will ever encounter on the subject of a gentle slope. To save everyone from having to go look it up, it reads: "If you recall, it was stated earlier, breaklines vary as to how sharp, or how sudden, they break. Some drop off very rapidly, while others may be only a gentle slope. It was pointed out breaklines can increase in depth a great deal, while others change depth just a little.” David, remember the depth change in that Florida lake being discussed is one foot. Would you agree one foot is “just a little”?

After reading page 16, mentioned above, will you agree the word “gradual” is indeed in the definition? Since Mr. Perry does not tell us how far (in total distance) such a structure can be, it appears to me you have somehow come to the conclusion that 50 yards from the top depth change to the bottom depth change, is too far and is therefore a flat. You referenced page 30. I suggest you read it again. Note carefully that when talking about a flat, he said “…and there is no secondary structure, breaks or breaklines.” Well, the Florida structure being discussed HAS a bottom breakline. See the difference?

Why did I ask you the question in the first place? I hoped you would think it over and come to the conclusion that you do not know. Coming to the conclusion that you do not know ain’t all bad because once a person realizes he does not know, it usually makes him willing to jettison his preconceived concepts or beliefs as being wrong. It puts him in the position of having an open mind, and most importantly, puts him on the path of searching for the correct answer.

Your hang-up is not knowing how far, in terms of longer distances, a sloping structure like the one being discussed can be. I would like for some of our friends who fish natural lakes to chime in here and tell us how far, in terms of total distance, they have actually encountered in their fishing experience. I’ll bet their experiences will surprise you.

At this time, I am going to assume you now realize you do not know or have a preconceived belief that is incorrect. It may be due to the fact that you have not been exposed to breaklines such as the one being discussed. It may come as a shock. If so, I say, welcome to the club. I suggest you accept that any change in depth, regardless how small, could indeed be a productive breakline. However, all changes in depth will not indicate that a productive breakline exists. The ones that prove to be unproductive will lead to a "dead end.” Indeed, a flat could exist below a breakline just like it can exist anywhere else. It is up to the fisherman to accurately interpret what is down there. Accurate interpretation of what is above and below a change in depth is critical.

You mentioned earlier that you looked at the slope in your yard. Go back and look at it again and look for any change in depth (imagine it is underwater). Identify any change, large or small, that would be a productive breakline. Also, identify any leading to a dead end.

Good fishing

[david powell]

To spnplgr=have read your post and i do have comments,just not enough time today,most likely tommorrow.
DAVID

[Jerry Borst]

Haven't fished bass in Fla. since the winters of 1982 & 83, at that time I never heard of Mr. Perry or a spoonplug. So as far as Fla. goes I don't know much! However we could probably get a handle on it today with some of the good info here, good stuff!

In 83 I did hook and dragged up on shore an alligator, that thing was pissed! He didn't want to give me back my white spinnerbait, so,, I let him keep it, ha ha.

Don't want to move the subject to deep water but "spnplgr" did ask for a little input.

"in terms of total distance" I don't know but far! What I do know is most of us would consider some of these areas a giant flat, But they are not! We also know the fish always knows where they're at!

On the last day of our trip last fall I said to Chris A. "I got something I have to show you." We had already been catching a whole lot of fish down to 60' for the last 7-8 days so we knew they were getting active in the sanctuary. On most of these spots we could for the most part "see" how these areas might be connected to good structure.

We took the boat out to a area way out in the middle far away from where we had been fishing all week, (the best areas). I tell him 55'-57' so we start trolling looking for this little spot,, this hard, clean, break, way away from what looks like anything. On the 1st pass we missed it, on the second pass we hit one. We busted a gut saying, "Can you believe it?"

We trolled the area for a while before leaving for home and ended up taking 5-6 nice walleyes. I know I know we should have casted,,, next time. Most spoonpluggers included myself years ago, would have looked at us as crazy!

Once you know what your looking for it doesn't matter if your in a dish pan cypress colored fla. lake with only 10' or a 100' clear water natural lake, I'm betting on the spoonplugger to figure it out, Thanks Buck!
white spinner baits HA!


Vol 5 pg 71:

You will probably locate and catch the fish (most of the time) long before we are forced to probe extreme depths or long before we must use a final slow and exact control. In fact, in most situations we will run out of "recognizable" structure before great depths are reached. But we must work (learn) to put the lure in front of the fish's face at 100 feet of depth if need be.

[Fran Myers]

AMEN!

[John Bales]

Great stuff fellows. How you doing Jerry? Spnglr; Not sure what you were asking from the natural lake guys. Are you speaking of situations where the breaklines are far apart such as in the florida lakes? We have the same thing right here in Indiana. I fish a shallow dishpan lake that has a dark yellow green water color. I mean dark in the summer. Like a white spoonplug is gone in just a couple of inches. Its features are very similar to a Florida lake. One 12 ft section with a group of fish and another is 18 feet. The 18 ft section used to be 12 feet also until they came in and dredged out a small hole. They gave this lake new life by doing so. It is surrounded by amish farmland so you know where all the cow and pig poop goes. This makes for fast growing fat pure white fish.
It has a shallow breakline at 8 feet and then there is nothing. Just flat. Something I have used that Frank Hamill told me is when you run out of recognizable features, use depth as your guide. The guideline that says "If your not catching fish, your not fishing deep enough" tells me to keep on going deeper if I have not made contact with the fish. The situation that Jerry is talking about we have went to these places many times and made great catches. Where we end up is just like Jerry says, out in the middle of nowhere. It may appear featureless but the fish are there. The fish are not lost. They want to be there. In the dark yellow green lake, many times the final pass is right down the middle of the deepest water in the area. And they can be caught a lot of the time when they are in that position. We have taken many large muskies from the Detroit river in and around the deepest water in the area being fished. Most of all the biggest fish have come from areas so far away from any structure, breaks and breaklines that most fishermen would never put a lure down there. Why did we? If a person wants the largest of the species he is fishing for, he will need to understand that the older a fish becomes, the more reluctant he is to move towards the shallows. Sound familiar? He will be near the other adult fish in a lot of cases but maybe just a bit deeper then the rest. What does this mean for the person who is interested in catching the largest species in the lake? It means that he will have to carry his depth control a little deeper. He will have to spend a lot more time in the deeper water learning how and where to present lures. This will take a lot of time and effort. There are a lot of times that you will go fishless if you take this route. In any fishing situation, to get all of the answers he must put a lure down there and find out what is there. This goes for the shallows, the deep and the inbetween depth. You have to know it all.
There is a lot of satisfaction that comes with finding out what makes a lake tick. Here is something else that Frank taught me. It went something like this. Eventually you will become good enough that when you see what you are looking for in deep water, you will know that this is it immediately. Once you find it, you can spend as much time as you want at this spot. When the biggest fish move you will catch him. The biggest fish gets big because he eats more, not because he is the most difficult one to catch. This fact makes him very vulnerable to a spoonplugger who has done his homework.
How many times have we caught the fish what seems like out in the middle of no where land? A lot of times. Is this information out there for everyone? I guess it is If we talk about it. How many spoonpluggers have the experience to do this? Not many. Mr. Perry did not go into great detail when it comes to fishing in and around the sanctuary depths but it is all in the book if a person is able to interpret what he is saying. This is the big problem with a new person who fishes the Florida lakes. These lakes are so flat that if he does not know exactly what he is looking for he will be in trouble.
John

[spnplgrkenny]

THANKS JOHN, JERRY, AND SPNPLGR
Great stuff, when you three make an entry on the forum, I stand up and take note. I hope everyone realizes what awesome stuff that is. As you say John, your not going to get that stuff on any other fishing sight. Keep teaching Brother, your buddy, spnplgrkenny

[spnplgr]

Jerry and John, thanks for your input.

John, I was asking the guys with natural lake experience to tell us if any of you have seen breaklines that are longer than the 50 yard one in the Florida lake. That is, longer than 50 yards from the top of the breakline to the bottom of the breakline.

Having only a little experience with natural lakes outside Florida, I am not qualified to say whether such structures exist in your area. Was hoping you could tell me.

Good fishing

[Fran Myers]

I can answer that. Yes!

The bowl shaped, seemingly flat lake with soft muck over the entire bottom is somewhat common in Minnesota. Now the smaller lakes may not be 50+ feet apart, but the bigger deeper lakes yes. And I admit that until recently I never recognized these situations as structure. However they are not unusual.

Now the flip side of the coin is can I actually troll effectively in these situations? Well, I am getting better. Muck does seem to kick my ass quite regularly and sometimes I have found muck a couple feet up the line from the lure. But every trip gets better. If the bottom is hard I'm good to 45+.

With the Vexilar Flasher less than 5 inch breaklines are quite easy to see.

I am very much enjoying and learning from your posts. Thank You.

[floridaboy]

YOU KNOW...ACTUALLY I GOT ALL THIS STARTED THE DAY AFTER CHRISTMAS WHEN I MADE THE COMMENT ABOUT YOU GUYS HAVING TROUBLE WITH CYPRESS COLORED WATER...I'M GLAD I GOT IT STARTED...THIS IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN LOOKING FOR...SOME INPUT ON SHALLOW FEATURELESS LAKES...MAN, I AM SOAKING ALL THIS IN AND PLAN ON A DIFFERENT APPROACH AT MY SHALLOW LAKE...KEEP THE INFORMATION ROLLING BOYS, I'M LEARNING A LOT...I MUST SAY THIS THOUGH: IF YOU DON'T HAVE WATER DEEPER THAN 8 FEET, YOU WILL "HAVE" TO CALL THIS THE DEEP WATER... MY LAKE IS ONE OF THOSE SITUATIONS...WE CATCH FISH...WE CATCH LOTS OF FISH...WE CATCH BIG BASS...AND WE DON'T HAVE DEEP WATER...THEY DO HANG AROUND THOSE 5 INCH DROP OFFS...THEY ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF BIG FLATS...WE FIND THEM BY ACCIDENT MOST OF THE TIME...IT IS TIME THAT I START ASKING WHY AND PUTTING SOME ANSWERS TOGETHER...I STILL CANNOT AGREE THAT THE CYPRESS WATER IS WORSE THAN CLEAR...I SWIM IN THIS LAKE...WHEN YOU GO UNDER, IT IS BLACK, NO LIGHT PENETRATION AT ALL...LURES DISAPPEAR A FEW INCHES DOWN....OK, I'VE SAID ALL THIS, NOW LET'S HEAR SOME FEED BACK....RAY