Buck Perry

[Fran Myers]

Wow, What a great thread. Wish I had seen it earlier.

First, the HDS units will have absolutely NO problem finding muck lines. Because the power output is so much less, I am not sure about the Elite models showing them with the normal view but there are ways to configure the display to show muck lines, hard spots, other changes in composition you would normally see.

In the northern lakes where we do have a lot of muck bottom lakes, you will see them. However they are deeper but not always. With practice you can see them on sidescan also.

Flasher units can see muck lines too but...
Not all units are the same. A large percentage of the units used today lose a large anchor lowered on a rope to the bottom directly under the transducer at about 1 to 2 feet. After spending an couple of hours with the owner of Vexilar showing me how to properly configure the view to show muck lines, I think just about any unit, including graph units could be made to work. However, it will require some tinkering. By far the HDS StructureScan in downscan view is the easiest best tool because other than adjusting the contrast a little bit everything is setup as you'd normally use.

For context, if you were to lay a big layer of sour cream down and then at the edge pour an equal amount of shaving cream next to the sour cream. The line where they meet at the edge is our muck line. I know the Vexilar units and StructureScan can find this kind of situation.

Second,
It is very disappointing that we have groups of Spoonpluggers that hold onto information. I am shocked that despite the example of Mr. Perry set by writing, thus sharing his knowledge with the world. I have been very lucky to have people share knowledge with me. My fishing has improved extremely quickly and I try to pass on the information as much as I can.

But at the same time there are people who have a great depth of knowledge to share and be awesome contributors except because they believe they are holding some tremendous secret, they won't even tell other Spoonpluggers. In fact, when I shared information on without permission those same people left our website. It was pretty funny to sit at a restaurant table in a group of Spoonpluggers with a person sitting right across from me totally ignoring me. Sad but true.

Steve, Dave Bishop got a lot of people angry when he wrote that muckline article.

Now I don't necessarily share everything with everyone right away. Not everybodies knowledge or abilities are ready. As a teacher, it can be very frustrating for students to learn something they aren't ready for.

Another thing is I don't share too much outside the Spoonplugger world. I am not trying to keep some competitive edge but just what are you accomplishing when you tell a fisherman with a bass boat that you troll with wire down past 70'? It's just wasting time.

Phil, good luck in Florida. The biggest thing you'll need to accept is how subtle everything is. While there are 6" break lines, don't expect very much showing the top and bottom of the break line vertical or sharp angle to each other. Most of what's down there will be things you are familiar with but will need to be looked at in a different context. Expect the top of the breadline and the base of the breakline to be widely seperated. In fact I could be over 100 yards difference.

Speed...
Several people including Scott down at Buck's Baits have told me that in the Florida Lakes, fish weren't caught until speeds were ABOVE 10mph. Scott said it was 13mph on his trip with Mr. Perry.

Now we have new tools for this situation. Mr. Perry was asked why Spoonpluggers never caught Bass bigger than about 15 pounds. His answer was - because the Spoonplugs being used were too small.

We now have the JB1 which was built specifically for these kind of situations. A lot of people are disappointed with the JB1 because it doesn't go that deep. Well it was never meant to. It's purpose was to have a bigger lure you could troll shallower at a much faster speed. The JB1 will track straight to 15 miles an hour (as fast as I've tested) in 10-15' or shallower. Using JB1's in Florida for bass, short line trolling weed lines for pike and musky, there are many applications. The frustration with the JB1 comes from not using the lure as it was designed.

Good morning,
Fran

[Steve Craig]

"For context, if you were to lay a big layer of sour cream down and then at the edge pour an equal amount of shaving cream next to the sour cream. The line where they meet at the edge is our muck line. I know the Vexilar units and StructureScan can find this kind of situation."

Much but not all of the "muck" in a Florida lake is not like you just described.
A better scenario is the layer of sour cream, with a very thin layer of shaving cream laying ON TOP of it.
When our lures are running quite easy through the very thin muck upper layer, many times, we cant even "feel" that our lure is doing so. In essence, we are fishing "below" the fish.
Sometimes, a half layer of line on the reel can make all the difference in catching of not catching a fish.Like i said earlier, Don Dickson let me "fish" below the fish for hours before I finally asked the right question, and then began to learn the difference between the thin layer and the heavier muck. It was however, a good "Spoonplugging lesson" for me at the time.

Mr Perry could "feel" the difference. Tom Coleman told me once that he and another Spoonplugger were following Buck in his boat, trying to stay on that muck line/hard bottom edge. After a few hours, Tom caught up with Buck and Buck apologized for not staying perfectly on the edge, as his depth finder had quit working and he was using only his since of "feel" with the lures! Tom said that from what he saw, on his Flasher, they were running it perfectly!

Ditto's on the JB1. It is a fantastic big lure for running shallower depths.

Somewhere i have some screen shots of the muck lines. I will try to post them here if I can find them.
Steve

[Fran Myers]

Steve,
I've been in that situation where the softer debris layer is over another soft layer but a muck line is where two softish bottoms are next to each other. Literally the borderline of the two bottom types. Kenny and others spent a lot if time explaining to me.

[Steve Craig]

I do understand about where the muck meets a firmer bottom is the "muck line".
I was just explaining about the stirred up layer that is OVER the heavy muck.

Here is a screen shot I took showing fish over the muck.



This one shows the muck/hard bottom line. The thicker white is the muck and the thinner white is the hard bottom.

[John Bales]

Those impulse units were way ahead of their time. I used one for a long time and just got tired of having to have my head burried in that battery box that we used for a cover. That thing showed the muckline great and that bottom pic that Steve put in there is outstanding for all of you to look at. There is one of those units on ebay that is bran new and never been used. It was tempting but the stuf I have now will blow those things out of the water and the screens can be easily seen. The old humminbird flashers were terrible in the sun also. Our tools have come a long way. When I gave Frank Hamill some of my lures, he said that he had dreamed about having one like that for years. I know that if I had a few months to be down there in Florida we could be showing a lot of giant bass pics. There is little doubt. John

[ltharley]

Really good stuff. Though I don't plan to fish these Florida lakes, the info is still great. Certainly the info is valid in the Midwest for soft to hard transitions.

Thanks John and Steve.

Dennis

[jwt]

Sulphur dioxide is toxic. Changes the acidity of the water.

[phillip szafranski]

Hello All,

Thanks for the great feedback to this topic. Here is a follow up question based on the responses:

Can we expect the transition breakline to remain fairly consistent in depth throughout the lake or can this depth vary greatly? As an example: A breakline that runs for five miles along the north shoreline starts at 11 feet and then drops in depth to 16 feet as it travels along the shoreline and then turns and goes back to a depth of 12 feet. Will depths vary that greatly or will a 12 foot breakline hold its depth or has a slight depth change of a foot or less in most cases?

[Fran Myers]

Phil,
My understanding is that they will wind around. While there will be consistency, don't be surprised with wild changes in direction, areas where the muckline just disappears.

Because the water is shallow, the consistency of bottom fairly soft hurricanes and strong storms will affect the bottom. Now in the early days of Kissimmee with the light current flowing yes there were consistent lines.

I've heard some interesting things about muck lines. While you don't want to get too far off, it would also be a mistake to try to troll the exact line always. The point was pretty heavily made that the Bass don't have to be right on any muckline, breakline, break to still be relating to it. Keep in mind these break lines can be very wide apart between upper and lower depths. You could be 50' or more off the exact muck line and still be just fine. In fact the exact wording was "it will be a mistake" to stay right on the muckline all the time. But you better know where it is and be trolling in relation to it.

Bye

[Team9nine]

We see a variation of this in several of our flatland impoundments here in Indiana. In this case, the "muck" is silt that has washed in and settled over the many years, often filling up entire creek channels and related breaklines. But on some lakes, the wave action from boat traffic wakes as well as strong winds, when combined with the right slope, will keep a portion of the original lake bottom washed and clean. Where those two areas meet (clean/washed bottom and silted bottom) forms a great breakline that is overlooked by, I would guess, about 90-95% of our anglers, perhaps more.

-Brian

[John Bales]

In short, that answer would be sometimes or just plain no. Yes it can dissapear al together. And yes it can make a 90 degree turn and head out to the middle of the lake and then back to the shore, just like a bar. There will be turns along it. We fished a hole in kissimee where the more firm bottom was on the shore side. We then fished an area where the firmer bottom was out in the middle of the hole. Current or wind or a shell bed had to have caused it to be this way. It seems to me that in order to find out exactly how to whip one os these lakes it that you must cover the whole lake eventually. How are we going to find a shell bed with some firm bottom which will be different than the whole surrounding area and will be a hot spot for sure if we do not make a pass directly over that area. There may not be a change of depth either, just in bottom content. I'll say it again, the florida lakes will be some of the toughest lakes that you will ever fish. Due to a lack of depth, these fish are really affected by a cold front that you will have to wait for days before they become active again. And due to the fact that the mucklines can and will vary in depth and shapes, your success will depend on how well you interpret exactly what is there and how the fish move on it. Your speed control in the hotter months will be faster than you are used to. Your control of your line lenghts and lure size will be critical. Learning to feel when your lure is just barely skipping the top of the soft bottoms is very important. The only good thing about the florida lakes is that the growing season is long and you have a very good chance at catching the biggest fish of your life. John

[Steve Craig]

Phil,
I know this is a "hand rule" thing, but in general, most of the breaklines are pretty consistant as far as depth goes, and then they will simply "peter out" for no apparent reason.
But as was mentioned before........a true Florida type breakline might be 50-100 yards wide and only vary in depth 6-12 inches from the top of it to the bottom(50 yards away). This is why we must "Figure 8" it once we catch an adult fish. The fish could be anywhere in that 50 yards stretch, and only they can see the little tiny breaks that they are following.

Now throw in the areas that were "dredged out holes" to gather material to build the homes along the shoreline, and you now have another great situation. But, I have found that many of these good holes have been "fished out". You can and will catch alot of Wipers in them today. Not so many bass though.

If you can find a "slot" with 15 to 19 feet of water in it and a good muckline at 12-14 feet running along it, you will be in heaven!

On Griffin, for example, the outside of the muckline was at 13-14 feet for much of the 1 mile long slot.
The hole was 16 to 17 feet for most of the slot when we were there last.
But when we did get a movement, the "inside" of the muck line at 8 feet, produced a few bass as well.
The best stop was a sharp turn in the muck line on the north end of the slot at 14 feet next to the 17 foot deep area.
As another example, from the 8 foot inside to the 13/14 foot outside muck, was around 35-40 yards or so depending on where you were along the slot.

On Harris, Dave Bishop told us about a big "hump" that had produced some 8-10+ pound bass for him over the years. We found it and the top of it was about 125 yards long by 50-75 yards wide. The top was clean and hard and it had a 10-15 yard wide muck line that circled it and the inside was 9-10 feet deep and the outside of it was at 13 feet. and the deepest water was 20 feet and it was over 400 yards away! But the fish were there. The smaller fish always came from the inside of the muck line(1-2 1/2 pounders). the largest we caught off the outside was in the 4-5 pound range.

Like John said......these lake types will be the hardest lakes to fish that you ever encounter. But......you will learn alot from them.
I was very fortunate to learn on these lakes. I spent 5 winters there in a row and I had 2 great teachers to lead me along.

FWIW.......move to AZ! Better fishing and even better weather!

[Jerry Borst]

I'll say it again, the florida lakes will be some of the toughest lakes that you will ever fish. Due to a lack of depth, these fish are really affected by a cold front that you will have to wait for days before they become active again. 
The only good thing about the florida lakes is that the growing season is long and you have a very good chance at catching the biggest fish of your life. John

John always has great advice and for some of these reasons is why this spoonplugger would not go out of his way to fish for bass in Florida. The ocean yes, love the ocean! 

I'm in no way saying that one should not fish in Fla. Spoonpluggers, Buck etc. have made eye popping catches for decades! Circumstances and one's personal preferences are what they are. If I found myself there the information given by Steve, John etc. would be priceless. I understand a lot can be learned by fishing these waters and the big fish potential is there. However the reason I say I would not fish in Fla. for bass is because of the conditions that John describes. What I'm also saying is if one has the "choice" of fishing these lakes OR with the same effort one could fish the same "Florida strain bass" in lakes with better water color and deeper depths, then it seems like a good choice would be to go to the second area.

You guest it, I'm in Texas again (and its 62 degrees). I can't tell you how revved up I get driving through this state! I do not mean to hijack this post but if any of you have fished some of these Texas lakes, I'd love to hear about it. 

Yesterday I saw a lake on my gps and clicked on it, after doing a small amount of research (it's not texting) I read where this particular lake had multiple stockings of Fla. bass through the years, a maximum depth of 60'+, a lake record of 15lbs. And it had "good color". So I decided to take a look and below is what I found. When pulling up to this reservoir my first thought was this lake must be completely drained down and I must be looking at clay. The color of the water was so red, which brings me to a question about water color. Can it have too much color, are there any negative effects besides the bank beaters have probably caught em all? We all remember the catches Terry, Vic and Buck made in Florida in the orange groves, Vic said the water was literally orange in color, it didn't hurt there.

The guideline I have always counted on regarding water color is "departure from normal" if a lake gets hit by a big storm and receives a lot of run off and turns it to mud, this would not a good thing. The water condition would not be stable. But I do not think this Texas lake has seen much needed run off for some time. Don't mean to change the subjest but I'd like to hear what you guys think about a water color such as this, either here or someone start another thread on color, thanks.

[John Bales]

Jerry, I thought I would wait for some replys first but I can't take it. You answered your own question. Stability is the key. If the color of the water is that red sandy all the time, you should be ok. If it has come from rain run off and it was a fast change, we are all in trouble. There may be another section where you could find the more preferred color also. The only water that I have seen like that lately is when I did the dishes tonight. I'm not talking about the color, I'm speaking of the hardness. There's about 18 inches of ice on my lake and I am about tired of looking at it. John

[Consigliere]

Just as info I work in south Texas regularly and when flying over the area I often notice that the reservoirs this time of year look very muddy. They seem to clear up some in the summer time I would guess this is a fairly normal water colour for this time of year and that area.