Setting Drag for trolling and leader length ?‏

[NoMuskyJoe]

(Jim, thank you for posting the Season 1/Episode 5)
While watching the Season 1/Episode 5/ Catching muskies on Kinkaid Lake, I have a couple questions about some things that were not mentioned:

A) While fishing with the JB-1, do you use a leader ?
If so, is it a braided or single strand leader and if so, what pound test equivalent ? What length is it ?
Leader length would be important as, if it is one foot long and completely engulfed, then the line would be exposed and slashed by teeth vs three feet long (protective against zebra mussels but), impacting the action of the lure ?

Do you attach the leader to the spoonplug split ring with a snap or a snap-swivel on the leader ?

I'm looking at what musky leaders are available, and there is quite a variety, along with the test# for a snap. You have a lot of success catching muskies, so obviously you have learned what works and does not impact the action of the spoonplug.

Also, I came across a Buck Perry comment that he did not use a leader for musky/pike. But, I will use a leader, just would like information to select what kind I will be choosing.

B) Because you were trolling to a depth between 18 - 28 feet, which would correspond to the JB-1 depth ranges, what kind of line (no-bo, mono, braid, steel) and pound test were you using ?

C) How would you explain the way you set the drag on the reel to give a little slack (if snagged)while trolling, but still be tight enough to hook a musky ?

For example, if I was to completely tighten the drag, then back it off a full turn or two so that it would be ~ 3/4th setting vs "loose": meaning it is loose enough that I can pull out line under tension with my hand with maximum (vs minimum) force, but (based on boat speed) when snagged the line will come easily off the reel (instead of snapping/breaking off) but still be tight enough that it will set the hook when the fish hits and the boat is continuing forward.
In my biased opinion, I would think a musky would need a harder hookset ?

Thanks for your help with this. Joe

[Jerry Borst]

GoMuskyJoe sent me his questions earlier but thought it would be better to post them on the site and get others opinion on what works for them.

Joe these are all good questions. (Part 1 just kidding)
As everyone knows it is impossible to show all the details of how, why or where the fish were caught and is made to look so easy. The bottom line is there is way more to it than meets the eye. I think about the amount of time, effort and finances that go into getting a spoonplugger to where John Bales is right now, it's incalculable. John, Terry, Vic and so many others who have carried the torch, making great catches and helping others for decades. 

The Kinkaid show was a couple of good days in deed. The reason Jim and I caught those fish was because of the knowledge and the guidelines spelled out in Mr. Perry's educational material. We took what was written and worked it to the best of our ability to follow these guidelines step by step, adding nothing. Buck sez the fish are shallow, deep or some where in-between. We start by working the shallows and progressively moving deeper until the fish are located. The fact that we found these fish in an active state was not a surprise, not only predictable with the condition at the time but if I may say expected. The guideline that talks about "Stability" in the weather and water conditions was the key behind this catch, thank you Buck Perry!

So why am I going on about stability in the weather and not a rant on how one leader may work better under certain condition, over another etc. etc. (Have any of you subjected yourself to any of the fishing magazines lately, John was just talking about it. I looked one over this morning and wow, all I can say is no wonder... Count your blessings!) While having the right tools to do a job is important and at times will make a job easier, tools (no matter how much is spent) by themselves will not catch a fish. There are many ways to go when it comes to tackle and gadgets but only ONE way when it comes to arriving at the fish on a regular basis! 

I think about Don Dickson and the seminar he did in Minnesota where he talked about the fishermen fishing in the wrong depth and all his newest and greatest crap and spends all his time in the wrong places, while some kid "with a cane pole and a can of worms" sits directly over the "school" of fish. 

Here's my thought on tackle is this, When one fishes for big fish with teeth he better be geared up for big fish with teeth. When we fish on bass lakes we use the standard rods, lighter line and spend considerably more time trolling and casting in shallower water. In most cases it takes a larger lure to get to the deeper depths. Also in most cases these larger lures have a larger surface area in the lip which intern creates much more resistance, stress and pull on the equipment and our bodies. Run a 500 with 12lb nobo, then run a 16" Mann's 50+ and common sense tells you some changes need to be made.

So here is what I found that works well when trolling for big fish with teeth in deeper depths.  I use a "cheap" 7' solid glass rod, if I get one season out of it great, if it last a couple that's great too but I'm not going to spend a lot of money on a rod that I know is going to break, been there... They all break at some point.

Next as many of you have seen or will see in a future Structure Fishing episode I've gone to a 12v electric reel for trolling deep structure,,, I know, I know the eyebrows have been raised but too bad! These things are kick a$$. All I can say is try it before you poo poo it. I understand the initial reaction but trust me EReels are here to stay and are the next big thing for deep water trolling for so many reasons.

 I first saw an electric reel while in the Bahamas deep dropping a 300'-600' break and thought "I can see that". We got back to the dock where a gentlemen was filleting up a cooler full of beautiful red snappers, so I had to ask, "How deep did you catch em?" He said 1200'... I punched my buddy in the shoulder and said "you idiot, we were fishing way to shallow!" But the seed was planted and in the fall of 2007 while fishing alone, trolling in depths down to 60'+ for 12 days I had wore myself out and thought back to those Ereels and how might they work for trolling these deep depths?It took many years of research and finally getting around to pulling the trigger on one. It was actually Chris Angsten that bought the first one. I quickly stole it out of his rod locker and headed to Madison in late fall where Toni and I tried it out. It was everything I thought it would be, defiantly the balm! Funny now how Toni went from the same skeptical reaction everyone has to I'm lucky if I can get it away from her. Guess I'll have to get another ha ha!

Ok, We still have and use the Okuma Convector 30D when we want to go old school, ha ha. Both reels are spooled up with 30lb single strand wire. With the thicker line combined with the longer line lengths a larger spool is required. Trolling deep structure may not be for everyone because of the added work. The 12v reel makes up for that and still one has the ability to reel a handle if preferred, (that doesn't last long). It takes about 230' +/- to reach 55' or 70.1 meters (EReel) you get use to it.

Next is I tie the single strand wire to a 80-100lb swivel. Then to a 3' piece of 80-100 lb Mono. I say 100lb now because human nature being what it is, myself included only does about 80% of what we hear. 80lb. mono has worked well with very few if any bite offs, we don't want bite offs! The Mono runs under $15/330 yards, cheap. While fishing in Detroit we retie every morning because of the zebras, in Canada we retie, after Chris's lures run into mine...

Going down the line nexta 80lb snap is attached, then to the split ring of a JB1 or JB2 which btw are great, durable running lures. I still use some of the original deep diving minnow type cranks which got this whole deep water structure thing going, for us at least.. We run the same set up from about 18' all the way down to the depths. 

When shallower than 18'-20' or so, where fish with teeth exist like at Kinkaid we used the same beefed up rods, reels (Convertor20d) but with Buck's 20lb. Nobo line tied to the same leader system. 80lb swivel/80lb. Mono/80lb. Snap to the appropriate running lure such as a JB1. You may have also noticed some of the muskies hit our trailer bait. These trailers are used for size control. Kinkaid does have some walleyes but would have to be extremely active for them to hit a 7" JB or a 9" Ernie. The trailer lure also is there for less than active bigger fish. On that particular 2 days we could have run rocks with hooks and the fish would have hit em but that's not always the case.

When attaching a trailer I use a piece of 6-8' 25lb mono (yes you can get bit off) in a different color than the 80lb leader, so if tangles occur these blind eyes can undo it more quickly.

As far as drag settings, what your doing sounds perfect. My only though is some lakes, areas are more hanging than others and this along with fish species will dictate drag settings. If there are  a lot of hangs (fish somewhere else) or lighten the drag. Hang free area or big aggressive fish tighten the drag. There really isn't a whole lot of difference and most fish will hook themselves. No one wants to loose lure due to a drag set to tightly.

Like I said there are many ways to get from here to there but this is what's been working.
Best of luck

[Fran Myers]

Thank You.
That was very helpful.
Fran

[ltharley]

Jerry,

Have ever caught a fish on a rock? Come on now

Dennis

[Jerry Borst]

Hi Dennis, always the jokester...
Maybe a few. I met this guy at the ramp and told him I had something to show him. Not only did he see the EReel in action but also some jerk trolling with rocks on his line. Must have thought I had rocks for brains
They make decent trailer baits but too much twist in the line when jigging.

[Team9nine]

Great post above Jerry. Tons of detailed info. Haven't had the need to go to wire yet in my neck of the woods, but this pretty much lays it all out if I ever do. Saved a copy for the archives.

Thanks for sharing...

-Brian

[ltharley]

Jerry,

Kidding aside, what type and size spoons do run as your trailer?

[Jerry Borst]

Eric Haataja turned us on to the Milwaukee harbor years ago. He said he was catching his trout on stick baits and spoons (at that time I didn't even know what a "stick bait" was) and many of them he said were caught at 24', which if you know the harbor would be about 4' up off the bottom. I thought how are we to get these shallow running stick things or spoon down to 24' or 30+'? We all know how to reach these depths with a 7, 800 or now the JB1 Spoonplug so it was logical to attach these shallow smaller lures to the larger deep running lures to get them in position. Well it worked flawlessly however the one thing that quickly became apparent was these trout (fish with smaller mouths) were almost always caught on the smaller lure. So I started counting and found that over the next 300 trout landed 297 were caught on either a 4-5" stick bait or a 1oz spoon. From that point forward I have had to live with the fact we have probably missed hundreds if not a thousand fish that could have been caught because I was not following the guidline of "Size control". Size control is about a fishes mouth size and also about activity level. Hope this helps and we'll see you out there.