Fishing Deep

[Steve Craig]

Obviously no one wanted to discuss this thread. Here for several days and 20 views and zero comments. A shallow water thread goes 4 pages long! But bring up the subject of deep water, something Mr. Perry said we should get better at, and NOTHING.
I am sorry if I offended some on here by asking a few questions. Maybe I asked the wrong question, I dont know. Maybe I shouldnt have asked at all.
If you dont ask...., how can one learn?
Fishermen are strange birds for sure.
Steve

[Jerry Borst]

Steve,
Sorry don't always the time to put up a response, however I did copy your 1st attempt and questions before they were removed. Do you have any other species besides Lm bass?

[Steve Craig]

Jerry,
First, let me say thank you for your response. It IS appreciated far more than you know.

Yes i have many species here. Walleye, Northern, SM Bass, Stripers, White bass, Yellow bass,all the Trouts etc. Just about every specie with the exception of Muskie. We dont have them.

Large mouth go to 8-12 pounds with the record at 16.7 lbs.(Lake)- A second state record LM came from the Colorado River system at just shy of 17 pounds
SM to 4-6 pounds with the record at a hair under 8 lbs.
Walleye to 8-12 pounds with the record at 16.1 lbs.
Northern to 15-25 pounds with the record at 32.6 lbs
Trouts Rainbows to 10 -15 lbs
Browns to 15 to 22 pounds
Stripers average 15-20 lbs
White bass average 3 lbs
Yellow bass average about a 1.5 or so

Most of the lake types are Canyon, Highland/Canyon and Highland with lowland characteristics. But still quite deep.
Very few Natural lakes, but the ones that we do have, have good water color with the deepest water at 35-40 feet. These dont seem to pose any problems as they are just not that deep.
The problem are finding the deeper breaks and breaklines in the Highland and Canyon. Even the Arms/coves can have 100 foot or more.
Water color is light yellow green to clear, but we do have a Golden algy bloom that does darken the water.
I have made some good catches under good weather and water conditions but I have trouble reading deeper, down below those 60 foot depths you were talking about when the weather sucks. During the summer months, we get VERY good weather patterns here with sometimes weeks , instead of days, before another front passes.
I am glad you responded, as I have alot of respect for you and your responses here on this board. Maybe we can still salvage this thread yet!
Again,
Thanks you.
Steve

[site admin]

During the transfer to the new site, the last 2 post here did not copy over.
To recap, Jerry or Steve are to post the original question again.
Fishing deep is a good subject. Lets keep this one going...!

[Jerry Borst]

Nice job Jim on the switch over!

Original post:

On the thread about Florida lakes that almost got high jacked(but didnt) about deep water fishing, Kenny Hyde made this comment:

"MOST GREAT SPOONPLUGGERS ELIMINATE THEIR FISHING DOWN TO THAT BATHTUB I SPOKE OF."

And Jerry made this comment:

" We had already been catching a whole lot of fish down to 60' "
"Once you know what your looking for it doesn't matter if your in a dish pan cypress colored fla. lake with only 10' or a 100' clear water natural lake"

And John Bales said:

"Most of all the biggest fish have come from areas so far away from any structure, breaks and breaklines that most fishermen would never put a lure down there."

I found all these statements to be very profound statements!!!

I would like to ask how do you get your fishing down to that "bathtub" size area in deep and extra deep water? I personally have trouble "seeing" the spot or "bathtub" down stairs(below 60feet). Out here, sometimes, I am forced to go deeper and have not be able to do so with any consistancy. Consistantcy is the name of the game. John talked about when doing so, you will have fishless days, and I agree. I got my butt kicked yesterday on a Highland/Canyon Res here. When I moved here 25 years ago, I wanted to cry when I saw the lake types I was "stuck" with! Deep, Steep, Clear water for the most part, and alot of short structure close to shore, etc. I began to really miss my Old Lowlanders back in Indiana! A fine gentleman on this board gave me one of the best tips I have ever gotten in years to help me not have to go so deep and to eleminate more water, and I truly appreciate his comments and tip. I wish he would reveal his name to me, just for my own piece of mind! But he has chosen not to and that is OK.
But when we MUST go deeper to make a catch, how do we recognize the spot? What is it that Jerry and John are seeing that I am not?What am I missing?

This board "appears" to have been put together to help increase our knowledge. It has been doing a very good job so far as I can tell. But more needs to be learned and understood. It is my goal to get to the point where I can recognized those bathtub spots. I have in some cases been able to do so, but not totally , if that makes any sense.
Any and all comments are appreciated. Lets learn a little more together!
Steve

[Jerry Borst]

Steve,
Don't even think twice about it, can't always get to the computer but it's not like I have any homes to build either, ha ha. A lot of time to watch politics.... GO Scott Brown, beat "Marsha" Coakley.

It's a very good thing you have the other species! They will save your butt!

I'd hit the lakes with the color and the 35-40' 1st. This is a good time to be looking for them in the deep depths, they are in their winter position. There movements may be short and may not move very far. As Kenny was saying about the "bathtub."

Question, do these deep clear things (Highlands) get a thermocline? I'm going to assume they do. The severity of a thermocline will vary (in our area) in strength from year to year, cool summer and or wind swept, would be weak or even nonexistent vs. hot summer very strong and defined.

We had heard about this thermocline idea but never paid much attention to it, however after talking with Terry O'Malley he straightened us out on this, saying "don't change the way you go about your fishing, treat it as a breakline."

We continued to go about our fishing as we were however some extra time may be given to good structures at or just above the depth where the thermocline sets up. We were doing ok until,,, Dad and I made a straight line pass and hit a fish well out beyond a bar in 40', lures down at the thermocline depth. Sure we could have viewed this catch as the fish following the bait out. We continued trolling other known productive spots working them thoroughly from the weedline down to the base break, (below the thermocline) catching a few but never below.

Later that morning after seeing a guide friend land a fish out in deep water I yelled out "how deep are your baits running," and "what depth is your boat in?" What would you do if he said "boat in 25-30'." He didn't have an answer for his bait (he probably didn't know). Next question, "what bait did you catch him on?" He showed us the crankbait and we then put on the appropriate running spoonplug. We then moved the boat out into 25-26', and started trolling in what we thought to be no mans land. However we limited our trolling areas to known productive structures. He took off to who knows where...

The 1st time we tried this it was a long 2 hours of second guessing and doubt,,,, but guess what? yep, we hit one. Dad and I ended that day with a bunch of good fish all free running, right at or above the thermocline breakline. On later trips again and again we have found them at or just above wherever it sets up, One time I told the kids "don't take the lures out of the water, we are going to cross the lake," while we crossed over the river channel in 65' a rod went off, lures down at or just above it.

The nomadic fish obviously suspend and use the thermocline as a breakline at times, and we should be aware of it. "THEY" always know where they are at!!!

Right now in your deep reservoirs I'd look at the rip rap at the dam and any causeways that might exist, this is easy trolling. If it's just too clear or unproductive then go up the reservoir to where you have some flatter structures and better color with at least 60' in the area.

One thing I learned while fishing trout in Lake Michigan in the winter is they are a very slow fish, never caught one faster than 3 mph and many at idle speed. We have caught maybe a handful on the larger baits, trout and even walleye can be size sensitive you will need to get small lures down to where they are.

[Steve Craig]

Very interesting post. Actually mind boggling!

We do have very strong thermoclines out here, as summertime temps can be 105 to 115 and sometimes more! Especially on the Highland/Canyon lakes. The Natural lakes are at high elevation (above 7000 feet), and rarely have a thermocline if at all, and I will not be able to even get to them until April or so, due to snow levels measured in feet! Snowing there right now as we speak.

One of the problems is that we are not allowed to even enter the dam areas on most lakes here, so they are out. I can only think of one lake that has a causeway, and it is empty of water right now! Most of these lakes are in remote country, and only one road in and out, for the most part.
If you go to Google Earth and find Phoenix, just look east of the city and you will see the kind of lakes I am talking about. There are 4 lined up in a row on the Salt river. Saquaro,Canyon, Apache, and the big sucker Roosevelt! Roosy is about 3/4 full right now, so I am riding around drawing structures while it is low. It will fill up during our snow melt this spring. All extra deep with short steep bars, and deep drop offs. Many of the Main Channel edge depths are in the 150 to 200+ foot range, even deeper closer to the dam, and even at the head waters, depths are still over 75 feet.
I have tried to do what Mr. Perry said to do, and use the feeder channels as my guide. Just having a heck of a time "reading" or "seeing" or "feeling" the deeper breaklines and breaks. Very frustrating. Water temps are in the low to mid 50's right now here. Water color is very good right now in Roosy, Apache and Canyon, and clear as a bell in Saquaro. Light yellow green. By mid summer, they will all be clear.
Mr. Perry made mention of the fact that we should find the "slides" and "washes" that come into the lakes in this pretty much rocky envoirment. Dirt........there is not alot of it anywhere. I still havent been able to make consistant catches on these. It was my understanding......and maybe I heard wrong, that the fish should use these year round. I have not found this to be the case. Maybe I am still not fishing deep enough, I dont know.

Thanks for the great tip and explanation about the thermoclines. I will certainly put that info to use this year.

Jim, thank you for a great site and a great job of rolling this thing over. Now we just need more deep water info.

"Brown wins!!!" Marsha losses!
Steve

[Jerry Borst]

I had lunch with Vic today and we discussed this some, his answer, "You can't make a lake into something that it's not." You either have to travel to something more friendly or put your noise to it and figure it out. If there are fish in these lakes they can be caught, but ask yourself how hard do you want to work for them?

If safe, I'd get a pass port and make a few trips into Mexico, that and also start fishing the ocean. San Carlos Lake what's that lake like?

[spnplgr]

I have been told that the reason a thermocline is so important is due to the fact that below it, there is too little saturated oxygen to sustain the life of most fish. However, I have no experience with such water, so this may not be accurate.

Usually, I refuse to post information unless I am positive it is accurate, but since you appear to be grasping at straws, it's worth thinking about, if not acturlly checking it out. After all, it's free and only requires some fishing time. Some of the finest fishing tips our club has ever learned were stumbled upon by pure chance. Now, if this proves to be wrong, the mis-information would magically transform into the category of things that do not work. In that respect it is knowledge learned and can be eliminated in your daily fishing trips. I take the position that you cannot know too much, you can only know too little.

Still, it appears that something drives those fish up just above the thermocline. What is it? I'd be looking for fast dropping structure adjacent to the shoreline and fish it just above the thermocline. It might not be a bathtub in the normal sense, but you'd have them hemmed us as far as top to bottom is concerned (vertically instead of horizontally).

Good fishing

[Steve Craig]

"San Carlos Lake what's that lake like?"

It was one of the best! Key word..."was". As of today, it is down to 1% full!!!!

They drained it! Makes me sick.

"put your nose to it and figure it out."

That is exactly what I am trying to do, by asking these questions here. I will do it.....in time.
Just was seeking a little help is all, to shorten the learning curve, and to shorten the time factor a little.

"I'd get a pass port and make a few trips into Mexico,"

I got the passport, but right now is NOT the time to be going to Mexico. You might not make it back......alive. Gangs are kidnapping people from the USA and demanding money as we speak. And not just isolated things either. It is B-A-D down here.

"also start fishing the ocean."

My Ocean is called Lake Powell and Lake Mead!
Steep, Deep, and clear!

I am a goal setting person. I achieve them. I put my nose to the grind stone and I am NOT afraid of work. Work is a multi fasited word. I work at studying, I work at doing. I work at Learning. And I work at helping as many people as I can in the process. I also work to please my Creator in the process too. It is just good to have a buddy to share these ideas, examples, situations with in the process. This I do not have out here. There is only me. I come here(this site) to learn, to understand, and to progress as much as I possibly can.
I want to sincerely thank you for your response's. They A-R-E appreciated.
I also want to thank those gentlemen who have e-mailed me with your help as well. You know who you are.

"I take the position that you cannot know too much, you can only know too little. "

spnplgr,
Exactly my point. You just said it with far less words than I did!
Thanks
Steve

[Steve Craig]

I also found this post back a couple of pages from John Bales

"Jim Shell did a great job setting this board up. Anyone who is interested in becoming a better spoonplugger can ask any question and very likely get the answer from someone on this board. This can be valuable information for a new spoonplugger. When I started back in the early 70's, there was not a spoonplugging club or anyone that we could ask a question to. We had years and years of struggles in getting better. Many have no idea how valuable this is. It can save you years of struggling just by asking a question.
Another part of this forum that is great is that we can share our catches with the guys. Taking pictures is part of the satisfaction of fishing. Besides that, you can show the wife that you really went fishing and caught something too.
Jim, I really like how you broke things up in catagories. This is going to be great. We need the guys to get to talking on here because it wont be long and we will be on the water instead of dreaming about it. Thanks again Jim for setting this up for all of us to share fishing information. John"

I added the bold print.
Thanks
Steve

[Bink]

Steve,
I completely agree with jerry on the thermocline, we had a very similar experience fishing deep clear norther wisconsin lakes on very hot summers. We could not buy a fish on structures that always produced, then moved out to the thermocline and hit some of the biggest pike that we had ever taken from these lakes. Another thing I would look for on your lakes would be fish cribs. I don't have much experience on huge resiviors like yours but the ones that I have fished and found fish cribs have produced.

[jwt]

The fact that a lake undergoes thermal stratification does not mean there is no dissolved oxygen in the hypolimnion, i.e. below the metalimnion(thermocline). To a large extent, the trophic state of a lake determines whether there is DO in the hypolimnion. Here's a link to a web page that gives a simple explanation along with some diagrams. http://des.nh.gov/organization/commissi ... /bb-27.pdf

Years ago I fished a deep, clear, tea-stained reservoir that stratified, thermocline from 28' to 34', but consistantly caught walleye at 40' in July and August. The owner's son was SCUBA diver and told me he consistently saw fish in the river channel at 55'. Incidently it was a sand bottom and there were no weeds in the lake.

In the final analysis Buck's approach is simplest one. Fish it. If you don't catch anything, there are no fish there.

[phillip szafranski]

Hello Steve,
Your passion regarding this subject matter is very evident. I would like to offer thoughts from a universal stand point based on my interpretation of Buck’s teaching, along with sharing an actual experience fishing a Highland Reservoir in Arkansas.

I view your situation similar to what we all encounter in our fishing involving all lake types. The question becomes where to present the lure below the last structural element / feature we are able to identify as we work deeper beyond the productive features we are fishing when movements are limited. Searching for something below the last identifiable feature, below 60 feet in your case, is comparable to me looking for some subtle 4 inch breakline or clean spot beyond the structure in 36 feet of water near a 39 foot sanctuary home. You would obviously face greater challenges in presenting lures to the deeper depth but we are both in the same situation of where to put the lure below the structures we recognize, regardless of depths. Once I move off the structure and go deeper due to lack of success, I have a predetermined amount of passes I want to make and at what depths. Once this is accomplished, I am moving back up shallower and begin the process over again regardless of it being the same or another feature. I have witnessed other Spoonpluggers going deeper and then loosing focus of the importance of the lure being in position when the fish move. I have noticed some Spoonpluggers being so fixated in fishing deeper, yet they struggle with properly understanding how the feature appears under water. You are obviously at an advanced state in your Spoonplugging. You are looking to become more consistent at extreme depths compared to most Spoonpluggers. My business sense tells me to take risks (fishing off of features) while on the water and apply an appropriate amount of time deeper to balance the risk and reward ratio. Obviously each person has their own threshold in determining satisfaction. I hope you can accomplish your goals.

Fellow Spoonplugger Joe Roth and I traveled down to Mountain Home, Arkansas to fish Lake Norfork. This lake has most of the species you mentioned and has all of the challenges you face in your daily fishing. The lake spans two states and has a depth of 215 feet at the dam in the channel. Finding flatter structures required travel between spots. We would fish the lake for three days on average and travel for two days round trip. We had done this for five years and would average making a good catch of stripers (8-25 lbs.), walleye to 8 lbs and a variety of LM and SM bass. Our success was due to presenting lures at all depths and speeds each day, along with obtaining information from the locals. The stripers were never in the same area twice during our travels, but we had a great resort owner that directed us to areas based on a striper fishing guide partnering with them. We simply applied Buck’s knowledge to the locations directed. All of the bass come from the very back of side feeder stream cuts. We traveled down there each March and found the water temperatures in the low 60’s and better water color in the coves, while the main lake would be in the lower 40’s and CLEAR. Because we checked varied locations with our depths and speed, we caught what was there.

I guess I am attempting to convey the importance of taking what the lake will give you, based on species and seasonality. Also, please remember to consider your night movements with the species available to you in the CLEAR water. Hope this help!

BEST OF LUCK IN YOUR FISHING,

Phil Szafranski – Chicagoland.

[Steve Craig]

"Once I move off the structure and go deeper due to lack of success, I have a predetermined amount of passes I want to make and at what depths."

This is a great statement, and one that we all should keep in mind.

I have a feeling that this is one of my problems. I now believe, due to your very fine post as well as others, that I do need to get into a habit of using a predetermined number of passes, and then get back to shallows and start over ASAP. I believe i may be spending far too much time looking for that "bathtub" and thereby missing an activity period in the process on the structure.

"All of the bass come from the very back of side feeder stream cuts."

Phil,
Are these cuts in the back of the longer coves, OR..... those little short "cuts" that are everywhere on a highland lake, that are no more than a few boat lengths long....or both? Just want to make sure what your saying is the same thing as I am thinking is all.

I also see what you are saying about the 4" breakline in 36'. I guess everything is relative.

Thank you....and I mean this from my heart. You have given me alot to think about. It certainly does help.
Steve