The Spoonpluggers Forum

I got into a discussion about countour trolling with another spoonplugger last week. Seems like there is some confusion on this. The book says that we need to learn to countour troll the shallows down to a depth of 8-10 feet and then make straight line passes when checking deeper. One time I had went to an outing in Muskegon and Mr. Perry was there. After every one else asked their questions, I asked one. Deb and I had fished Muskegon Lake that day and we had fished it from the base of the weedline down to about 30 feet. I had already learned that if you ask a question that deserves an answer, you will most likely get a good answer. I asked Mr. Perry if we did all that we could have done on that particular day. He gave me an answer that totally blew me away and scared me to death. He told me to go out there and start at 30 feet and work it down to a depth of 60 feet. He told me to sink an 800 and countour troll and feel my way along and this would show me the features to work deeper. I looked around to see if he was talking to someone else because I didnt have the confidence or the knowledge to do this. Not at the time. Here was the man that wrote the book and was telling me to countour troll the deeper waters when the book clearly stated that everything below 8-10 feet should be fished with straight line passes. What I am going to do here is let you think about what he told me and let some of you come up with why he told me to do this. When we talk about boats on this forum, this generates tons of remarks. Depth meters get tons of remarks but fishing situations dont seem to get that much attention for some reason. I want you to think about this and give me some of your thoughts. Let's see where this goes. John

Thank you John for posting a question for us to work on, it's exactly what I come to this site looking for!!

THINKING!
Charlie

Mr.Bales
First off it was very nice to meet you at the seminar.

I think the reason he would have you contour troll that deep would be to evaluate and interpret the structure.


Bink

John good question,but surely you know Buck was a jokester,and he was just pulling you leg!
Actually you contour the shallows,to learn whats there and fish activity if any.If you locate a bar or some other structure then you go to work on it with markers and straight line passes.Again learning whats there,where the features are ,faster breaks ,deep water,etc. Now I beleive the reason he told you to start at 30 and contour troll, is for the same reasons,you treat the 30' as the shoreline,now you have to find whats there .If any bars or whatever is found ,you again do straight line passes to learn the same things as you would do up shallower.
Maybe thats close to what he meant.
DAVID

He was simply answering your question the way you asked it. He was one of those people who listened carefully to questions and answered them exactly the way they were asked. He did not try to decipher what was meant. Sometimes the person asking the question does not phrase it correctly and it comes out wrong. Then too, some people read other things in an answer.

In your instance, I suspect he figured you had made good presentations down to thirty feet without contacting fish. He knew that many times fish do not move shallow, but get active "in place". Under those circumstances, he said their diet may change, but they can still feed without moving shallow. So, he answered your question just the way you asked it and told you to move on out looking for them.

It remains a fact that you and I cannot catch them where they ain't, regardless how good we are.

good fishing

How many on here know that this subject is in the material?

Believe me.......if I cant contour troll below 40 feet, then I am in big trouble in these deep highlanders here. Yes it is hard, yes it can be done, and yes it is a pain in the neck to do.
But if you cant find the "spot" or what Kenny called the "bathtub" below as deep as you can go, then how else are you going to find it?
I have been on a crash study course on this subject for quite a while now. And with the help of several great Spoonpluggers on this board, I have found out that............

"the more I learn, the more I see there is to learn". and we all know who said this!

Come on guys....lets see some talk on this subject! Tell me if i am wrong with what I just posted! I dont get offended that easy!
Steve

John,
Good question to get the old brain working. I don't recall reading anything about that situation and am still pondering the reason for contour trolling the depths, but one thing you said stands out:

...countour troll and feel my way along and this would show me the features to work deeper.

Turn off the sonar. Trolling at that depth requires a lot of wire and trying to follow a breakline with the sonar may keep the boat in position, but the lure would be in Hoboken. Buck even spoke of the technique on shallower break lines, i.e. ease the boat in until the lure hits then ease it out until it runs free again. Repeat that over and over along the whole breakline

138 views and only 6 replies.

Like John said......
if we were talking about a casting rod or a fishing boat, there would be dozens of replies!

This can be a really great topic for all of us to learn from each other.

" you really begin to learn when you start teaching" I wonder who said that one too?

OK here's what i'm thinking

DEEP WATER is the Home of Fish!
30' is a sanctuary but not home.
If the fish aren't from 0'to 30' they have to be deeper and there is a route they will follow
we just need to find it!

charlie

John, my thoughts regarding your original post is as follows:
Based on the fact that you felt compelled to ask Buck about your fishing for the day is an indication that you were not satisfied with your results for the day.

Everyone reading this post should consider that this discussion is lake specific in nature but could apply to other bodies of water, if applicable. Fish species (northern, walleye, bass and occasional salmon), water color and available structural opportunities in Muskegon allow for deep water presentations. It would be unlikely that Buck would provide you the same advice of straining down to 60 feet in a deep flatland reservoir. Imagine straining these deeper flats from the short shoreline bars down to the river channel. Some of these lakes are miles wide and what a waste of time and effort this would be.

The fact that Buck would suggest this is an indicator to me that he anticipated limited movements to the shallows, and that deep water presentation of lures will be necessary to consistently make a catch here. You should also consider that Buck’s suggestion was a vote of confidence in your interpretation and presentation skills. If he felt he was doing more harm than good, I doubt if you would have received such a response.

As we are aware, straight passes will apply when working specific deeper structures. The contour trolling suggested by Buck was intended for teaching purposes in locating deeper structures and fish. Once specific features have been found, applying straight passes will again be necessary.

Buck’s response of fishing down to 60 feet is consistent with his updated guidelines in recent years. If we encounter a period of time when fish are not being caught, we need to fish as deep as our interpretation and skill level will allow, to a depth of 60 feet.

Now we are starting to get somewhere!

Actually we caught lots of fish that day. I was just wondering if I could do more. I had the man in my reach and thought if anyone could make me better, it would be him. First of all, we could fill a book on just this one subject. Every body of water is different. Every structure situation is different. Countour trolling is how we all should have learned how to troll the shallows. This teaches us the lay of the land and shows us the features that exist out from what we observe from the shoreline. By learning to troll the shallows, we learn the basic movements of the fish, how weather and water effects these movements and begin to see how all of these things are related. We begin to learn. Once we find exactly what part of the structure situation the fish use, we concentrate on that one small area. We can hit it on the troll (one pass or many) or we can cast. A quick drawing is made getting shoreline sightings so we do not have to do all this work all over again and we are on our way to the next one.
The green book states that we should not countour troll below depths of 8-10 feet. I am sure that some of you remember reading that 15 feet is a good depth to troll on a reservoir that you are looking at for the first time. The reason he gave was that it is a good depth between the shallows and the deep and if anything stood out, you would find it. But then again he says that when on a new body of water and you are using the first three sizes, you do not go deeper unless you see something is there. It is a little confusing at first but his reasoning is obvious. There may be several reasons why he did not want us to countour troll the deeper waters. First of all he did not want us out there in the middle of the lake running around like a lost dog. His purpose was to get us to catching a fish because he did sell lures you know! If we dont catch fish we dont buy lures. Second, fish react a little different shallower than 8-10 feet than those deeper. The shallow fish are more active and we can be a bit sloppy and still catch them but downstairs we better be on the money.
Lets look at it another way. In most waters, the shallows are more gentle sloping making it easy to keep lures in position. Most of the sharper breaking features in any body of water occur in and around the inbetween depths, lets just use from ten feet to thirty feet as an example. Once we reach the base breakline in most bodies of water, it flattens out again some what. It is in the area of the inbetween depths where markers and shoreline sightings are most needed in order to keep our lures in position. Once we get below the base breakline where it flattens out, it becomes easier to countour troll and keep our lures in position.
I will say another thing and this is one of our guidelines. "If you are not catching fish, You are not fishing deep enough." Many times a fisherman must go out beyond the shallows and the inbetween and the base breakline to find the fish. Sometimes the only way to find the answers is to fish it as deep as you have confidence in or as deep as you need to find what makes these fish tick. At times you must cover a large area of deep water to find the answers. This is where contour trolling comes into play beyond the 8-10 foot depths. This is exactly what Mr. Perry was telling me to do. Now dont come on here and tell me this wont work in your lake. Every lake is different. Some times we strike it rich when finding such areas and some times we strike out. There will be a time that you fish your favorite lake or spot and the fish are just not there. Are you going to just stop where you normally do or are you going to check deeper and try to learn a little more about your lake? If you do not know your structures well and do not know what is there or what to expect or not ready for this experience, then dont go there! You will be better off waiting for them to come to you on another day. John PS........ When countour trolling, once you find THE SPOT, then it is straight line passes or casting once more. No more countour trolling. Your job is done.

I have been reading this thread with interest. I know Steve has been interested in deep water because he lives in an area where the water is clear to extreme levels. Reminds me of a small segment on the "Today" program last summer when they talked about the water clarity of Lake Tahoe shrinking to "ONLY" 70 feet of visibility...They were worried the decreased visibility would affect the fishing.

Seems to me that a lot of people forget the "Green Book" is the foundation of our education, not the end all. How can I speak this heresy? Well, I have exhausted myself studying all the books (Green, HS, Blue, pamphlets, even the single pages in the lure boxes, and hundreds of "Fishing Facts" articles).

One of the things that really continues to piss me off is how I can call John Bales or someone else to whine about a difficulty I am having, only to be told that I should have done something different because it's in the "Green Book". Being a kind of a low level nerd, I have the tools to search the entire library quite easily. When I discover that nowhere is a particular subject written about specifically I usually call John and say something foolish like "You're making it up!" (cleaned up considerably). But John, after slapping me verbally, always pulls out the material and gently reads the correct passage. Now here is the rub. John has over 30 years experience. He's spent time with Buck and has had communication with him that most of us never had.

I am not at all defending John. The point is when I read a passage in the "Green Book" I look at it with my 5 seasons of Spoonplugging experiences. John looks at things with 30+ plus years experiences. What that means is that when each of us reads a paragraph out of the "Green Book", even though we both read the same words the MEANING that each of us get from the words is different.

A lot of people CLAIM many years experience but really only have one or two seasons of experiences repeated many times. This is not the same thing as having a lot of experience.

Everybody has read this passage:

This book is a TEXT. It should be read and studied as such. There is repetition on the more important points. I have tried to make each section as complete as possible, for repeated study on a particular subject, without additional reference.
From the “BUCK SEZ” section of the Green Book.

Now everyone has no trouble reciting the various publications verbatim and criticizing others who don’t do the exact written words as Buck wrote them. But all of us need to remember the words that Buck wrote in the paragraph that is immediately below the above paragraph:

Lots of the material may not make sense until yet have had the actual experience on the water, so it is important, that you study and restudy the book.
From the “BUCK SEZ” section of the Green Book.

So is it possible that Buck wrote or spoke about contour trolling the deep – yes. He sure says that we as Spoonpluggers need to be able to present lures to 100’ (John’s seminar from 2009). Sure he wrote that we should only contour troll the shallows. But within the context of beginners. Most people on this site have a hard time getting Spoonplugs past 25 feet. Get some experience; and contour trolling to well past 50 feet isn’t that big of deal. It’s just skills acquired with practice. YOU just have to decide to do it (this was the subject of John’s talk in 2010).

Something else to think about when we have doubts. In another place in the "Green Book" he wrote about having great catches but leaving without telling anyone because most fisherman couldn't do what he did to catch them. I have no problem believing that contour trolling a deep water sanctuary is a tool Buck used. How else could Buck get the facts we use on the water everyday. I don't believe he would Joke with someone who was sincere.

NOTE: The Blue book isn't available anymore. It was the study materials Buck used for his schools before the Home Study was completed. I call it the Blue Book because mine came in a blue binder. Anyway the Blue book is 95% IDENTICAL to the Home Study and way less than 100 pages are not carried over to the Home Study. There is some awesome stuff about seasonal fish migrations and some pages about specific characteristics between the different fish species. The part that blew me away was that he really did write about crappies and sunfish. I also learned some interesting things about Smallmouth.

I will NOT copy this book so don't ask. Jeri Perry required this promise from me when I made an electronic copy. But there are a lot of them out there, I got mine on eBay.

It'd be nice if the blue book was still available. Would like to read about the different species. Even if they offered it as a download, would be nice. I'd be willing to pay for downloading it. It would be cheaper for everyone all the way around.

Woody, You learn to catch the bass and the others just get in the way. Thats the truth. John