The Spoonpluggers Forum

Last night I was bored so I picked up one of several green books laying around the house and started turning pages. I looked at all the pics in the back pages first because I just got done talking with Terry O'Malley for about two hours. My thoughts as I was going through the material was that of repetition and nothing new. Let me tell you something. As fishermen we go through stages in the amount of knowledge we gain every year if we work hard. Every single time we re-study this stuff, there is a different meaning to some of the subjects. Sure, a lot of it is so simple that you just quickly go over it without any new meaning but every once in a while, something hits you like a brick and you honestly do not remember reading it before. John

John,
I have noticed the same thing. It is my opinion ( and you know what they say about opinions) that our entire world and our learning process is the same.
Take the Bible for instance.
You can read a scripture, even set it to memory. But until you EXPERIENCE it for yourself, you really DONT understand what is being said. (Example: time on the water for a Spoonplugger)
I also believe that there are many LEVELS of Knowledge and Understanding.
The same Scripture that your were sure you understood, can have an even deeper meaning at a later date and time.

There is also Head knowledge and Heart Knowledge. Many times people have no trouble understanding the material,(Head Knowledge), yet have trouble putting what they thought they knew into practice. (Heart Knowledge)
It was this way for me. Don Dickson and Tommy Ferencek told me that they never seen a guy pick this stuff up so quick.
Yet when I tried to put it into practice......I sucked! I can still remember Donny sitting in the boat, scratching his head, and doing everything in his power not to kick me out of the boat. But he understood people, and he knew what my problem was. It just took some time, then MAN!!!! did the light bulb finally come on!!!!

It is the same with The Green Book ( our fishing bible). At least that is what I noticed and I think that is what you are trying to say here.
Research has proven that the average person only retains 10% of what they read or watch the first time through.
And it takes reading or watching 6 times to get to even 80% of what is there.

Yes, we read something that we havent looked at for a while and scratch our head in wonderment, and say: "I dont remember reading that"!!

Yet I also remember our Teacher telling us that we can and must get better and better in our learning. He said: " the more I learn, the more I see there is to learn".

Like you always say, there was and never will be another like him!

Gotta love it.
As I do each winter ( Because it's cold here Steve), I read the Green Book and the Study Course, the ABC's of Trolling by Carl Malz and the Daily Guide by Dickson. Additionally I watch the tapes by Buck, Dickson, and Bales.
I definitely learn something new or gain a new insight each and every time. While watching one of Dickson's tapes I caught a small mention about the thermocline being treated as the bottom. I read this before, but never heard it in the tape. That simple comment made me examine many past fishing scenarios and wonder if I had "forgot" this information.
And Steve, you are so right about life experience changing your insights. God bless you Brother.
Dennis

ltharley wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:00 pm Gotta love it.
As I do each winter ( Because it's cold here Steve), I read the Green Book and the Study Course, the ABC's of Trolling by Carl Malz and the Daily Guide by Dickson. Additionally I watch the tapes by Buck, Dickson, and Bales.
I definitely learn something new or gain a new insight each and every time. While watching one of Dickson's tapes I caught a small mention about the thermocline being treated as the bottom. I read this before, but never heard it in the tape. That simple comment made me examine many past fishing scenarios and wonder if I had "forgot" this information.
And Steve, you are so right about life experience changing your insights. God bless you Brother.
Dennis

Dennis could you or some one explain what that means...About the thermocline being treated like the bottom" ???
Thanks

Hal

Hal,
My basic understanding is once a solid Thermocline develops it should be treated as "the bottom". You will seldom see most species of fish below that level. The guy that can really give you the insight is Jerry Borst, a guy that fishes deep for a living. Others here (John Bales, Steve Craig...) will also offer great insight.
Here is a submission by Bales to the National Newsletter (if you're not a member, shame on you) that speaks to the Thermocline.
Breaklines are associated with all structure situations.
You may find them at any depth with some
being a sharp increase in depth and others so subtle
that they are barely seen on a depth finder or felt with
our lures. Some are very straight and some are like a
snake and weave and turn all over the place. The
best thing about a breakline and I must include
breaks in this statement is that the fish may stop or
pause in their movements and migrations. What this
does for you and I is that we can identify these breaks
and breaklines, know their position and depth and this
will allow us to present lures more thoroughly and
correctly.
As spoonpluggers, we were taught to use structure,
breaks and breaklines as our guide to fishing success.
In most all cases, Mr. Perry gave us enough
fishing knowledge for those who put forth the time
and effort to have some success. In all areas where
we may face any fishing situation where too much
information would cause us to vary from the basics,
he would mention that proper presentation of lures
would take care of any belly ache that a fish might
have.
One of these fishing situations that fall into this
category would be a breakline in the form of a thermocline.
Here is what Mr. Perry wrote about thermoclines.
" Most of us should know that water will
have "layers", or will stratify according to temperature
(Thermocline). The density (weight per volume) of
water will change as the temperature changes. We
should also know that waters of different temperature
could, or could not, contain the same amount of
oxygen. Breaklines of this nature we cannot "see".
And, in the given body of water, the conditions of
temperature and oxygen are too variable in quality,
quantity , and location to be of concern, and we feel
they are not worthy of time or effort in any form on our
part. Besides, if we control our Depth and Speed
correctly, it makes no matter where or how sections
of water with different temperatures or different
oxygen content exists. These controls will take care
of the moods of the fish - belly ache or not. "Structure
is our guide, not temperature or oxygen content of the
water". This is the total amount of space that was
given to the subject of a thermocline and his explanation
of his thoughts on what we needed to know about
this particular breakline.
If you start trying to figure this all out, you may go
back and re-study what he said again and you will
read words like layers and stratify and density and
weight per volume and the amount of oxygen that
these layers of water may or may not have and so on
and so on. Sounds complicated and it was for our
benefit that he came to the conclusion that we spend
little or no time in trying to figure this out and that if we
control our Depth's and Speeds correctly, this will
take care of any belly ache the fish may have. One
thing that he did say is that we do not worry about any
breakline that we cannot visibly see.I would agree
with Mr. Perry that breaklines that we cannot see , we
should not worry about, however............ with the aid
of a graph or especially the new down scans, a
thermocline can easily be seen and how the fish are
relating to it can also be seen. Some of the old
flashers were said to be able to pick up a thermocline
but I was never able to figure it out. For those of you
who are dedicated flasher users and do not want to
change, a sure sign that a thermocline is set up is
that the fish seem to be all near the same depth all
the way across the middle of the lake regardless of
how deep the water is. Most of the time, the thermocline
is starting to set up after a few weeks of hot
weather. The HDS units will show the thermocline
better than any other tool that is out there. At times
you may see what appears to be a definite line but
you are still viewing fish below that depth. In this
case, it is not completely set up yet and the fish
below the thermocline can still be caught. When the
thermocline does set up, the line will be very clear,
the fish will normally be in or above that particular
depth and you will see no fish below that line. It is
also about the time that you can't seem to catch
much of anything below that particular depth.
Knowing if there is a thermocline present can keep
you from wasting a lot of effort fishing where there is
little chance of catching a fish. It is also a great aid in
the fall fishing. I will ask a question now and give you
something to think about. Where do you think that the
fish are on any particular day when the fish are not
active? Mr. Perry would say that they are where
conditions are most stable. If the fish cannot go deep
and they are forced to be in a position that they do not
want to be in, they can and will become very inactive.
There are times that when a thermocline is present
that it is in order to run a lure suspended at the depth
of the thermocline and directly over a breakline out
away from the weedline. This is especially productive
for the northerns and musky. You could run one lure
up off the bottom and one lure on the bottom to cover
it all.
The best time of the year to keep track of what the
thermocline is doing and how the fish are relating to it
is in the fall. As soon as the night time temperatures
start to cool, the surface water cools and starts to
sink. This process starts at this time and continues
until about 50 degrees and this is near the time that
the thermocline will no longer exist. As the surface
water starts to sink, the thermocline will gradually get deeper and deeper.
As this happens, the fish also go deeper and most of the larger fish that
you catch this time of year will be directly related to whatever depth that
the thermocline is . This is still as deep as the fish can go at this particular
time. If you spend all day on the water and pay attention, most of the bait
fish that you see will also be at the same depth(as deep as they can be).
The colder the nights are, the deeper the thermocline will be and the
deeper you will catch the fish but it will be consistantly at or near whatever
the thermocline is at that particular time. It is this way because the fish are
wanting to be as deep as they can go to offset the changing conditons.
Eventually the thermocline will be gone and you will be getting closer to
fishing out into the main basin of the lake and this opens up the whole lake
for the fish. At this time of the year, you would consider this to be a stable
condition and the fish could make short movements to the shallows at
times. I have seen this happen when the tournament boys score big and I
am too stubborn to leave the deep water.
I have never had any reason to question Mr. Perry's guidelines and in all of
the years that I have been spoonplugging, I have never known him to
make a statement that was not true. However, I have always tried to find
the answers to a fishing question myself and now that a thermocline can
be seen, some of those questions can be answered.
Good Spoonplugging, John Bales CS!

My take on it is that once established, the thermocline should be considered a breakline, and possibly, the bottom.

Dennis

Sorry Hal I forgot to mention, if you do a search on the forum, such as "thermocline" , you will find a boatload of info. Also, welcome to the forum and Spoonplugging. If you ever get want information this is the place. You can also call or email me any time (414-218-6019 ltharley@yahoo.com)
Dennis

Dennis
Thanks very much for the reference material. Found many posts concerning Thermocline using the search feature works very well.
Raining here 3in's so far, snow just about gone, Hard water will be with at least another month.

Hal
Three Rivers, Michigan

Hal, Do you realize how close we live to one another? I have fished nearly all of the lakes in your area at one time or another. I can drive to three rivers in about 40 minutes from where I live. I was bored a lot this winter and drove up to D&R sports center twice and drove right through three rivers. John

Hal,
If I had John living that close I would surely figure out a way to get together with him. I'm lucky to have some great Spoonpluggers like Jerry, Brett, and Gino nearby.
We also are having some heavy rain here. Snow is almost gone. I just can't wait for open water.
I'm planning a trip to Beaver Lake in Northwest Arkansas in March. That has me pumped up.
Dennis

You really got my head spinning now....
A few questions that come to mind are about the "Thermocline Wall".
Could you elaberate on the type of lake you see this on?
(Rivers seldom have stable enough waters for thermocline to set up)
Have you seen multi layers of thermoclines ?
It is that in chasing big pike and particularly lake trout up here in Eastern Ontario I find that as the warmth sets up the thermoclime line visable on the electronics this becomes a line where they refuse to come up to from the depths.
Hense my question on the type of waters you are discussing.
Here when we have the hot dry summer period (doesn't happen every year) the upper thermoclime line is 10 to 15 feet or less and the temperature difference between the line is very very noticeable when you are jumping off shore.
If the weather has been calm and stable for an extended period of time (something that rarely happens here) I have seen the deep thermocline line develope. Is this that deep line of low O2 to the warm water species that you are referring to? I say warm water species because for ling whitefish and lakers it is common to locate them gathered below 75' all year.
I hope I am not stirring up silly questions but I am not sure if the deep thermocline line is something that I should be looking into around Eastern Ontario area.

Thanks for your great write up.
I am learning a tonne of information.

I could spend a lot of time talking about thermoclines but Buck summed it up really good so we don't have to think about it too much. A thermocline is nothing but another breakline that fish can relate to. If your depth meter will show it, then it will also show any fish that are relating to it, above it or below it. If you can see the thermocline and see at what depth the fish are relating to it, then it is a simple matter to put a lure down there and get your depth and then control your speed to see if you can get them to take. For most of the time, it is a hit and miss thing and not even worth putting much time into it. Around here, the thermocline may position the fish above it and it is worth the time to check it out. In that situation we are fishing bass that are on or near the bottom, just a bit shallower than what the thermocline is. I did an article a couple of months ago on that exact situation if you are a member of the national, you can look at the screen shots and see the fish we were catching. I explain everything you need to know in that article. Every lake is different and those that do get a thermocline, it is changing throughout the season. In order to know what is going on, you need to be on the water a lot. John

John Bales wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:30 am Hal, Do you realize how close we live to one another? I have fished nearly all of the lakes in your area at one time or another. I can drive to three rivers in about 40 minutes from where I live. I was bored a lot this winter and drove up to D&R sports center twice and drove right through three rivers. John

Thanks for heads up! Very nice to know. Corey,Pleasant,Long,Clear and Harwood lakes is my normal route. Fisher, Fish and Donnel lakes ,With parts of the St. Joe river, being on my schedule as well. In the past I have alternated lakes on daily basis. All those bodies of water are within 20 minutes of the house. Over the years I have caught some nice fish, Bass Pike and Musky though just not very many. I know I caught over a hundred LM stragglers last year and I'm sure I was almost on a first name basis with some of those juveniles/
As I recall spoonpluggers meet at the library in Kendalville for there schedule meetings. That's about an hour or so from me. would certainly like to come down some time and meet and greet the group.
D&R has been a haunt of mine for years. Van Dams are old friends, Bought plenty of equipment, Guns, boat, and other related items from those folks.
All our snow is gone except for piles left from plowing here after the 5 inches of rain and 60 degree temps though my small dog training pond is still hard certainly not safe to walk on! Think spring. I trust we can meet up some time in the near future.

Hal Standish
Three Rivers

Hal, Yep........... fished them all. Got some big bass out of Pleasant one fall, a big school. Corey and Harwood are known for small fish but there are a few big ones too. Fisher had tons of small pike, and a few bass but never did get any big ones. Don't remember Clear but know its in that area. I think I missed that one. Used to do well on Portage and Barton real good . Have not been in that whole area for a few years. Shavehead had loads of small bass but one time we really got into a big school out a little deeper. Caught the hell out of them on Long and Baldwin back in the day, nice smallmouth and a few walleye. They had limitations on launching a boat for a while so I just went somewhere else.
Theres a lot of lakes up off of 40 from hwy 12 all the way to Allegan. Fished a lot of them too but not all. Allegan reservoir is one of my favorites. Jim Shell did a show with me and Duplex on Allegan. Lots of little smallmouth but now some are 16-18 inches and I'll take that. Maybe Jim can post the video on here. You fish the same lakes all the time, it gets old so you start looking at others and you keep going farther to find new ones and then you get old like me and cant do that all the time. Just sometimes. We will get together. We used to venture up to Lunkers for a lunker burger. I miss that place. John

Forgot something. I took my dad to Harwood in December. It was snowing and I will never forget this. The lake was very clear. We caught about 100 bass on blade baits. Most of the fish came from 15-20 feet and just as soon as you hooked one, you could look down and see them swimming around . They were all 12-13 inch fish. I never went back. John

Here you go Hal.
This photo/screen shot, was taken by my good friend Jerry Borst. It shows the Thermocline at about 23 feet or so as well as many fish just above it.
Hope this helps
Steve