The Spoonpluggers Forum

This might be one of those unanswerable topics, but since I have loaned my green book out to my son, I can't scan through it to see if I missed it. Buck says that the deepest water in the lake will generally hold the largest and biggest schools of fish. So, how do fish know where the deepest water in the lake is? Let's say a 3-1/2#
walleye makes his way down a river or creek from one lake to a brand new lake. I can see how after spawning in the shallows, it would continue moving deeper until
a school of adult fish booted him out of the area back to a shallower area, but what about that adult school? If they are perfectly comfortable in a 50' hole, why would they move to find that 100' hole farther down the lake? Or, comfortable in a 100' hole compared to a 150' hole? Obviously, the opposite of 'a fish won't go deeper to get shallower' wouldn't work or they would never get to the deep holes. This all might fall into the category 'Buck said it--don't question it'---so, I'm sorry, I had too much time for my brain to wander today.

Pat

To save a whole lot of typing, and because this article is already available on the site, see if it doesn't answer your question. See especially the very first part where he explains "the 'home' of the fish," and what it does or doesn't mean relative to 'deep water' in a lake or reservoir. If I understood your question right, this article will answer it.

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=2254

-Brian

That really doesn't relate to my question pertaining to the comment "the deepest water in the lake will generally hold the largest and biggest schools of fish" which is what I have read in Buck's literature, or on this message board, or maybe on a Don Dickson tape. Anyone else remember hearing that?

Sorry that didn't help. Perhaps someone will know where that quote comes from. I've seen Jerry B reference it or something very similar before on here, so perhaps he'll chime in. I skimmed through the green book again to see if I could find it mentioned but came up empty.

Im pretty sure Buck has said that on numerous occassions. I believe he said it on several of the Jamboree Seminars he did.
One thing I do know......It is the truth.
I have experienced it many times over the years.

Also remember that a fish is "comfortable" at any where he is at. He doesnt know any better. He uses structure, breaks, and breaklines everywhere he goes.Does he know that this hole has 150 FOW or that this spot only has 100 FOW?

I just know that the older and bigger he gets, the more reluctant he is to leave that deep water. He just keeps getting bigger, the older he gets.
I have to learn to go to him, because he will not be coming to me.

Steve, I wasn't trying to infer that it wasn't true---but to get someone else's ideas on how this might happen. Evidently Buck's theories on the
topic weren't conclusive enough to put it to writing.(I don't believe)

"Also remember that a fish is "comfortable" at any where he is at." He is comfortable with the temperature---yes, because he is cold blooded, but if he was always
comfortable with the weather and water conditions, and the prospect of being eaten---then we could catch him in two feet of water with top water baits all day long.


"Does he know that this hole has 150 FOW or that this spot only has 100 FOW?" I guess that's my whole point. What causes him to move from a 100' area---crossing
a shallower area void of any structure situations(that we can see) to get to a deeper 150' area?

Perhaps this might be more in line with what you are asking?

Buck gave an example in an article one time using a natural lake diagram and three deep holes. Using your initial comments above, we'll say they are separate 50', 100', and 150' holes. Buck stated that all three would be acceptable home areas (sanctuaries) and each would supply fish to the respective structures in their immediate areas, and as such, we'd have to check out all three if we were fishing that lake.

He later went on in more detail and gave an example of two deep holes, one on either side of a bar that extended out between the two holes and separated them. He wrote, "...This means we have two deep sections in the area that could serve as the "home" of the fish. One is 35' deep, and the other one is 45'. Probably both sections serve as a sanctuary for groups of fish. If you and I were fishing such an area, and did not know their position or their features in respect to the structure (bar), we would have to check out BOTH sections. If you and I had to make a choice WITHOUT CHECKING THE AREA, we would choose the DEEPEST. If their positions and features (in respect to the bar) were the same in every detail, the DEEPEST should be the better of the two, and it should contain the biggest fish in the area."

Nowhere in that article though did he state that a fish would move from one hole to another looking for deeper water, or that some holes wouldn't hold fish because others in the lake were deeper. Instead, he always stressed the importance of "the deepest water in the area."

If you are anything like me, I have wanted all of the answers and have worked very hard over a long period of time to find them. I have not found all of the answers simply because there is so much to learn and there are so many variables involved. What I have learned is that there are some things that you and I will never be good enough to find out but can still have plenty of success if we just take Mr. Perry's teachings as being the truth, and make an effort to follow those guidelines. If you do that, your question is of very little concern. You will also find out that the deepest section will contain the largest fish. Frank Hamill always said that the biggest fish will always take the best spots. This will be true everywhere that you fish. John PS. I might add this. When a fish is a teen , they swim around in the shallows for the time it takes them to grow to adult size. Once they become an adult, they join the other adults and spend most of their time in and around the deeper waters. When they become active,they take the routes of structure, and use breaks and breaklines in their movements. My point would be that the fish(what ever species) know their waters well. They are very aware of exactly what the shallows, the deep and the inbetween waters look like. This is their home and the fish is never lost. It is mostly the fisherman that is lost. Walleyes, white bass, northerns and musky are migrating fish. The good old largemouth is not. When they migrate, they use the features of the bottom that are in that area to guide them in their movemts and migrations. These migrating fish will cross areas of the bottom that you would never think that they could. What may look like a big flat to us may not be a flat at all to the fish. The walleye , musky, white bass and northerns are some of the easiest fish to catch. The LM Bass are the most difficult. This is why Mr. Perry coined all of his teaching around the LM Bass and this is why I enjoy the bass more than any other species. The bass is my first choice and the other easy fish just get in the way. The best way to answer a fishing question is to go after it yourself. Like I said before, some of our questions just aren't that high up on the list as being important and you shouldn't worry about it.

Ok John, got it. But just to clarify. Finding the largest fish in the deepest sections of the lake probably
has more to do with the species habits than anything else?

Thanks, I'll stop thinking about it

Pat

My feelings on this one is in most cases, as it has already been stated, Buck is talking about the lm bass with a sanctuary depth of "only" 30-35'. When pursuing species such as the walleye the spoonplugger must learn to work more than just structure situations that go from the shallows to the deep. 

Chances of success are greatly increased if the spoonplugger learns to identify productive deep water features. There are times though the season when the depth that the fish are in takes precedence over a structure situation that is connected to the shallows. The guideline that says "in order for a structure to be good, it must lead all the way" is true but only when talking about the lm bass. This not always the case when talking about many of the other speices.

There are structures where the fish that roam use at certain times of the year but are never found on them at other times. Take a thermocline breakline situation where it sets up at 30'. We are fishing for pike and walleye and have a hump that tops out at 32', this structure would be a dead end at this time of the year but as the thermocline begins to drop with cooler air temps, this hump would need to be checked all the way up till ice up.

The spoonplugger will never or hardly ever catch a lm bass on a structure such as a hump, saddle or a hard clean spot not connected to the shallows. However  our catches have shown these areas that are not connected is where many of the biggest walleye, pike and muskie spend their time after they spawn. While it is true the spoonplugger will catch everything that swims when fishing for the lm bass but he will not be in the best position to catch the most or the biggest fish until he learns to identify deep features.

As we know the deeper we present lures the more difficult it becomes both in presentation and most importantly in interpretation, the reason few fishermen have little success in deep water. The interpretation of the most subtle bottom features below 15' is critical. I'm with John on using what Mr. Perry has taught and going out and seeing and experiencing "first hand" what he put down on paper, by doing so it acts as cement. As John is into the bass, I am into the "easy fish" ha ha, fishing the deep water. However I have never caught a fish that was easy. 

 Our experience has shown that the walleyes sanctuary maximum depth is only second to the Lake Trout. Water with a yellow green to clear water color, where the weeds come out to about 10'-12 has shown the walleye to be in 60-70'. We probably all know someone who has caught a walleye or some other species at a ridiculous depth but one fish or a small days sample doesn't mean they spend the majority of their time there. It takes years of catches, running the lures and pushing the depth boundaries. We were taught that a fish wants to be as deep as they can go, or as conditions allow. The lm bass's sanctuary depth is well documented, the pike 45'-55', the muskie 35'-45'.

 I told this to a guy the other day that spoonpluggers fish the "deep water" features. I said, "you must fish where the fish are, not where you want them to be". I added, "how many fishermen want them to be in the shallows? Millions...

Imo the walleye does not need 150' in fact if a body of water has 150' there is a good chance the spoonplugger has no business being anywhere near it. First, because most body's of water with that kind of depth are going to be extremely clear. Second, as we said above the fish won't be found any deeper than their sanctuary so anything deeper would just be water under the fish.

Now as far as size or area, just as Buck and how Frank told John the deepest water with the greatest amount of deep water would be the first choice. However, If we have 2 areas on the same lake with at least 70' I'm gonna start with the one that has the greatest amount of deep water but after checking out "both" areas it will come down to the one that has the deepest path for the fish to follow to get to the depth the fish are most likely to be in at that time of the season. The more stable the weather, the shallower they will be located. If the conditions put the fish at 42' then a spot or area that bases out hard and clean down to 42' has a much better chance of producing than a spot being fished that is muck at 42', or if bases out at 35', it most likely will be another dead end. 

In the spring the fish are as shallow as they will ever be, as the season progresses the fish move deeper and deeper before reaching their wintering area. This was one of the best pieces of information ever given and what I used to build on fishing deep water.

When we go north in a couple of weeks and if there is decent weather (stable conditions whether it be cloudy for 2-3 straight days or sunny for the same the fish (walleye, pike and lake trout, occasionally the muskie will visit the deeper depths) will be found no shallower than 40'. The sm. will be shallower most of the time. If the weather conditions turn for the worst, the structures we fish could require a migration route (clean & hard) down to their sanctuary depth (70') and then there will only be a short window of opportunity but if your interpretation is correct a lot of big fish can be landed very quickly. 
Have a great fall!