For a while I have looked at Mr. Gino's post about fish crossing a flat. It brings back many memories with a few that stand out as a HUGE learning point. Fish will not cross a flat VOID of signposts is what Mr. Perry told us, he did not say fish will never cross a flat under any circumstances. This becomes very clear when you study, not read, our material. He discusses how fish will under good weather conditions follow breaks across a flat to structure that is otherwise unproductive due to its location. The learning points that I stated before were kind of learned the hard way, by this I mean that while I was able to catch fish on a particular structure, I didn't know how they got there. This is a problem, because if they are not at home and not on the structure, where in the heck are they? Well some might say that they are simply in between...easy for you to say but not so much when the in between is 34-35' deep and three miles across.
The first point is a thermocline, or simply a stratification of the water table. Kicked my butt in Florida saltwater for about a week. Second are really small cuts made by runoff that make their way through a flat to the river channel. Thirdly and finally is the craziest in my opinion cause you simply cant figure it out, and I have never experienced it. Mr. Perry was studied bass in a large saucer type lake moving from old beer can pop tops to the next. That just amazes me that something so miniscule how the fish migrate, AND WE CAN'T SEE THEM WITHOUT A SNORKEL! Get your spear guns
So my thought here is maybe we can get some comments and what not thrown out on how, when, why the fish use the first two conditions I mentioned. The third is answered I thought very simply by knowing that fish will not go blind and are never lost. They use structure, breaks and breaklines for their migrations to and from shallow water. If a DEEP water sanctuary is not available they will use breaks that occur in an area to protect them and serve as their home. Which breaks they use and how they use them is dependent on weather and water conditions. More particularly weather=light / water= water color which affects how much light reaches the fish in the first place.
Interesting thought Josh. Somethings one might not think about as breaks, i.e. trash on the bottom, e.g. beer cans, anchors, fishing rods, pieces of waterlogged wood, etc. As you say, the fish can see them, but they won't be picked up by our sonars.
Last edited by jwt on Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Your sure right about not being able to see things with sonar. In fact you miss A LOT with depth sounders. I cannot say this as fact but it is my opinion. Mr. Perry tells us that we should not use a depth meter in the shallows, why? In the deep the fish are likely to be using structures that we can see on the depth meeter or the change(breaks) will be large enough to see.
But in the shallows they may very well be using breaks that we cannot see there for we must rely on our lures to do the talking. This is not saying that mapping a weedline with lures in the water is necessarily easier or better than using your depth finder in that situation. I would and do use it then. But if you are faced with bottom conditions that allow for proper and easier lure presentation on the troll, use them.
What about the other things mentioned? Thermoclines? Breaklines caused by stratification? Mud vs. Clear?
Odd, to quote someone "48 posts and 1 reply" why? Do you have nothing to add? No comments? I know that there are more than three spoonpluggers that can comment on the things I posted. Come on guys, this forum exists for no reason other than to make us better. A temperature breakline can affect a movement just as much as a breakline on the dirt bottom. A thermocline can change how you fish a lake as much as a cold front! Why not learn and talk about what is brought up here?
Although never having personally experienced it, I have spoken with topnotch Spoonpluggers who have caught fish on a breakline formed by the transition from a soft to a hard bottom and on the breakline formed by the top of the thermocline. At the Muskegon outing several years ago, Chase Klinesteker caught bass on a transition breakline. At the discussion that evening Chase and John Bales gave a detailed description of how to locate that breakline with a flasher unit and how the fingers on it are used by fish in the same way as the fingers on a bar.
Thanks JWT for the reply, I would love to have someone show me how to use the electronics more efficiently. If there is an area I really need help in its that.
The thermocline I've experienced only a very very few number of times. The mud and clean breakline, to many to count and it is identical to what you were saying about the fingers and the fish using it the same way. With the mud and clear breakline we have in a lot of Ga lakes, the fish will move vertically up it as well as horizontally. If you don't recognize it and change your presentation accordingly it can really get you good, catfish haven instead of pretty bass!
How exactly do we recognize the thermocline on a flasher and on a regular depth sounder?
Josh, I grew up using nothing but flashers. Hummingbirds up the gazoo. Wore out plenty of them. Then the zercom flasher came along and we thought we had the cat by the you know what. Best flasher ever built and I thought there was nothing better. Then Kenny Hyde and Frank Hamill introduced me to a cathode unit similar to a tv screen. Way ahead of their time but difficult to see. Had to cut a hole in a battery box and surround the unit so you can see the screen. In all honesty, I have learned more in the last couple of years using a hummingbird graph then ever before. There is so much to learn in how to use one and how to get the most out of it that I would have to do a class to show everyone. Once you know what to do, it is the best aid that is out there. You get more information out of this type of unit than anything else. Thats just all I can say right now without writing for hours. John
There is so much to learn in how to use one and how to get the most out of it that I would have to do a class to show everyone. Once you know what to do, it is the best aid that is out there. You get more information out of this type of unit than anything else. Thats just all I can say right now without writing for hours.
Could that the subject for a video? Are you switching back to the graph from a flasher? Using both?
You and I have spoken briefly about this before, I just grew up without electronics. Now with all the advances I feel way behind the power curv on it. Heck I just use it for the depth reading and that's it. Will be great to get back home and start catching up on stuff like that.
Not knowing the limitations of electronics and too high expectations really are something we can get better at. Part of the issue with flashers, which I love and despite spending the past year learning my new HDS system - I would feel naked without my Vexilar flasher.
In Minnesota we have a lot of Florida type lakes- dishpan, extremely soft bottoms. I don't remember how I got on the subject but I found myself at the Vexilar factory with the owner showing me how they set the flasher to be able to detect changes in bottom make up with changes so slight to actually be able to show the difference between muck and silt. He told me how the party boats on Mille Lacs in the 70's would drive around. The sounders were so weak that most of the time they couldnt even show a return. The captains would drift or slowly troll around until they got a bottom return. Then they would just criss cross the area.
Going to graphs it is amazing what can be shown. Thermoclines, fish echoes, changes in bottom content, However, there are traps. The settings you have can blind or overwhelm. The size of the fish can effect how the display is shown. What you think is right underneath you (fish) at a certain depth could be a fish of quite a different size actually be a long way to the side at a completely different depth.
If you get into the most modern tech now your getting into into the difference between a flashlight and an MRI scan literally. You can actually see fins moving on fish. But the cost is an issue and electronics don't reel in more fish.
Another thing I do is use different software to import data from the depth sounders to get a big picture.
No matter what you spend, electronics are not the complete answer. Without our guidelines I'd be lost. And even though I see some of the fish I catch on the sounder, more often I see nothing other than the structures I'm working. Bottom line if you can afford it, buy the equipment. If you follow our guidelines these electronics are worth it.
However if you think you can replace effort, time on water, populations with electronics, take it from me - a person with no electronics will always kick the ass of electronics by just following our guidelines.
Yes I have pretty much replaced my flasher with a graph. The old graphs presented information too slowly for countour trolling. Not instant like a flasher. By accident, I found a way to speed up the scroll speed and eventually understood what I did and why it sped up the scroll speed. Most all of my trolling is done today with a graph. One of the most important thing I can tell you is to never run it on auto mode. For me, I want to be the one in charge of how my equipment is set to get the most out of it and you cannot get that from auto mode. My depths are pre set(by me) for the lakes that I am fishing. The flashers were supposed to be able to show a thermocline but they never did show it very well if at all. On a good graph, there is no doubt if one exists and you can see how the fish are relating to it. Still just an aid. I was so suprised to know some pretty good fishermen who most all ran their units on auto. I was shown by someone else quite a few years ago how to get the most out of a unit. I never used to pay any attention to the fish I saw.........Never........ And then one day I learned from another spoonplugger some interesting observations that he made and started paying more attention. You can believe this or not. A lot of times, I can tell by the way that the fish are positioned if I will be able to catch them or not. If they are spread out, forget it. If there are several stacked on top of each other, you better get ready for a hit. At times, you see nothing. Looks like the desert. You are in for a long day when you see that. No depth meter will show fish when they are inactive and very close to the bottom. It is only when they become active, that you begin to see them. Try this. Turn on your depth meter. Get in around 20 feet of water. Take your anchor and let it down directly below your transducer. Start lifting it up off of the bottom. You will not start to see it until it is 1 1/2 to 2 foot off the bottom. A depth meter is only an aid but.......... if you observe what the unit is showing you, there is more of a chance to learn a lot. John PS........ Flashers show breaklines better than any other unit and they come in handy when the other unit takes a dump so mine still goes with me.
Wow, Thanks for the great reports on depth finders. As many know, I have used the same old (DINOSAUR) for over twenty years. I have fished with John and can tell you that he gets maximum results out of this fishing aid. You can have the greatest depth finder on the market, but if you don't have any idea how to get the most out of it, then it can bring more harm than good.
I have seen spoonpluggers buy new modern, expensive units, and travel down the same brakeline I am fishing, and tell me that they are marking 7 or 8 schools of fish. I would make one pass along the same route, throwing one marker on the only school of fish in the zone that they marked 7 or 8. This is really not their fault. It is just inexperience more than anything else. The reason they marked so many schools of fish is because, as John stated, Most folks, when they buy a unit, does minimal studying, turns it on auto, and takes off. Believe me, if you fished a partical change bottom, the auto mode will be a grave mistake. When fishing these type bottoms, I turn my unit on manual, and turn my gain down to about 2. Plus If I am fishing between 15 to 20 ft., I use my 10 to 20 ft. zoom, this gives me a larger picture of a somtimes tough bottom to identify.
When running a unit, purely on auto, everything not attached to the bottom will show up as a fish.
Also as John stated, If I troll up on a structure and see the fished stacked along the breakline, you better hold on to your lugnuts, because your getting ready to receive an overhaul!!.
It just takes time spent on the water to really get the most out of your unit, hours and hours. I have gotten to know my unit so well, If you are fishing with me and see me throw a marker, before I catch a fish, then you better tense up, and get ready, that is, if you have the proper depth control, because excitement is only seconds away!!!!!
On the other hand, you must be careful about turning your gain down to low, you will erase some things that you shouldn't.
Spending three days with John on Erie, He taught me more in those three days about his depth finder than I could have learned in a year, by myself.
Thank goodness, I have been blessed with great spoonplugging teachers that left no stone unturned, as long as I WAS WILLING TO LISTEN, AND HAVE A BURNING DESIRE, that is just the nature of this great thing we call spoonplugging!!!!!!.
P.S. When watching Jim Duplexs outstanding video, it gave me chills when Jim pulled those 5 beautiful bass out of the livewell, hearing the folks on the shore, busting with excitement. I AM NOT SURE IT GETS MUCH BETTER. NOW TO ME, THAT'S THE KIND OF HIGH I WANT TO BE ON. And Jim, you should be charging for such outstanding videos. I rarely ever see anything close to that on national tv. I once saw Roland Martin have three different watches on, in a thirty minute program.LOL!!!!!!, AND DIDN'T CATCH NEAR THE QUALITY BASS THAT YOU CAUGHT. THANKS!!!
I usually do not reply to post about electronics. One of the reason is because some time some of us at least me, we are afraid to comment on things like GPS and graph type of depth sounder, due to a lot of spoonpluggers will frown about using electronics but if they start to understand that these are only tools to aid us to understant what is under neath the boat. We will get the argument that is a delayed signal, to me at does not matter due to once I know what is down there following MR Perry guide lines will complete the job. I love using electronics especially to get a good understanding of the bottom signals, I do not care if I see fish or not, but a ball of bait fish to me is interesting, especially in muskie fishing. When a unit is operated in manual as JB stated you will be able to see thermocline Hard bottom to soft bottom. One thing I want to had Take out your noice rejection and surface clutter the signal will be a litle cluttered but you will see way more of the bottom make up and every thing in between and yes also fish. Same goes with GPS I do not rely entirely on it but I know How to use all the function that the unit has and it will aid on getting close to trolling passes and after a while shore line sighting are aquired once you know you are hitting an underwater point or rock bar. GPS and sounder go hand in hand in aiding to map a bar, and the ultimate is Buck guidelines like trowing markers to shape the bar or whatever we are mapping. The way I see it we are living in the 21st century and would be a mistake not using these tools as an aid.
I want to thank the FISHERMAN serving in Irack to me you guys are the real heroes to make sure to preserve our freedom.
Thank You for serving
Yes I do strugle with understanding the statement that fish will not cross a flat, but the fish will see enough signs down there that they will cross it. I do not understand as to why the statement was made. Now I just accept the fact that the fish at times are able to cross a flat and I just do not care how the fish get to a good structure if they have to cross a flat to get to weed bed or a good looking bar.
Gino, it is an honor to serve our great nation, although I am almost finished and can't wait. The reason for my original post on this was actually your post. There seemed to be a good bit of talk about "how the musky" got to the area where you caught them. It had me thinking, because if you don't know how that they got there then you cant find them if they are not there. So stories came to mind and I posted the one about Mr. Perry and the beer can pop tops. It was one that my father used all the time to emphasize why there had to be breaks on certain structures we fished. Also why most structures will not loose their productivity once a lake is established, until the water color changes forcing the fish deeper. It is just important to remember that the most productive structures should relate directly to deep water. But if they don't and you are still consistently catching fish there is an answer, and its easy, they can see the breaks and you can not.
That is what led us to the electronics discussion. I was never allowed to use them growing up until I could do it without them. Without electronics you can catch all that you want. But there is a reason that Mr. Perry used them in his personal fishing...THEY ARE GREAT AIDS! Now aids will kill you if you rely on them but if you use them correctly they can show you things that you could never see, like a muck and hard bottom line. It would be wise to realize that seeing that could answer how fish got where they are from deep water. I am slowly learning more about the electronics we are fortunate to have. I only hope that I can start using what I have more effectively when I get home, instead of just a depth reading.
Also anyone who would be angry for a guy using an aid and having it better their chances on the water is a fool, and should really just shut up. Gino, there is never a reason to not share information. Especially on here.
Gino my friend, Hold your head high when you speak of electronics. Sure, electronics is an aid, (tool), but believe me, if I didn't have and know my depth finder the way I do, I wouldn't have caught half of the great catches that I have had. I realize that it all comes down to using the basic guideline, but not using or having this type of modern equipment, in my opinion would be down right stubborn. I for one, am not 1% of the great Mr. Perry. I need every edge that I can to put fish in the boat.
I fish some deep water structures that I would have never known where there had it not been for my depth finder. Some of these places don't show up on my map. Most of the pictures that I post on the forum, have come off these tiny, suttle areas. Most lakes that I fish are fairly large lakes. Spoonplugging has taught me to take these big areas, and narrow the productive areas down to what I like to call a bathtub. Mapping is my main weapon, and my lures and depth finder is the (fine tuner) to help me arrive at the fish.
Personally, I go to the great areas that spoonplugging has taught me to find, then, Jerry Borst says, I start marking bait fish and fish. Just because I don't see any fish, I always let my lure be the deciding factor, because as John stated, they can be laying below my blind spot.
I can't imagine fishing Florida, dishpan lakes without the aid of my depth finder. Most of these type bottoms are so soft, that you can not put a lure on most of the bottom, so you have to keep it as close to the bottom as you can, without touching. Believe me, most of the breaklines are so suttle, that you can't see it on a depth finder, but what the depth finder does for you on these type lakes, is show you where bottom changes occour, if you have your depth finder tuned correctly, otherwise, it all looks the same. I never realized what little difference it took for a fish to use until I started trolling those type lakes, even though,it probaly looks like a mountain to the fish.
Believe me, despite what people think, I like my depth finder so well, that I never go on a trip, without my two spares. If used correctly, they can and will be a wonderful edition to your arsenal. Ask Steve Craig how he feels about his units.
P.S. Josh, thanks for all these outstanding post, young man, I am really impressed!!!!!
