The Spoonpluggers Forum

Small Flatlander. Total water area is less than 800 acres.

Flatland Lakes(Reservoirs). Flatlanders pose a different situation than do most natural lakes. In that they are mostly flat. the structures that do exsist, are for the most part created by the flow of the former river or creed that was there. So as the guidelines tell us about them "START THERE" the map posted is of a lake in claton county, ga. It is more of a Water shead type lake, drinking water only, but does have deacent water color. I fished this lake for a few years with my father after it was opened. It is a killer to non-Spoonpluggers, filled with trees, electric motors only. FILLED WITH CRAPPIE, and Big Bass LM. The map I posted is of a spot that I call " Double Tree" local pros beat the crap out of the trees and seldome connect. so enjoy the map and ill have some posts later. IED's are calling my name.

joshua douglas travis

Mr. Perry once told my father, and later repeated the same thing to me, " Flatlanders are the toughest lakes to fish, if you consistently catch adult fish on one then the others should be fluff." As a few of you know I grew up with nothing but these lakes, West Point Lake in particular. Kenny has posted on the Jamboree thread some absolutely GREAT information. I have no doubt that you could get him to talk more about what he said and spend days talking about it. While I'm sure he is much more knowledgeable than I, here are some thinking/talking points.

- On the map I posted, where is the home of the fish?
- If you were going to this lake with the map I showed, where would you make your first cast or would you cast first? Spawn/Summer/Fall? How long would you spend there?
-On the top of the map next to shore you see where I wrote " spawning " How did the fish get there? Why did they go there? Why did they not use the 8-13' delta situations next to deep water?
-Would it be reasonable, with water depths in mind, to catch quality adult fish on ANY parts of these structures 1 day after a cold front? How many days after a cold front would you expect to get a good movement? Where at first/earliest?
-There are no anchoring points that I showed for the shallow water. Where would you anchor or how would you approach spawning fish in this situation?
-If you were fishing with a non-spooplugger, he was casting the shore and yall started catching yearling fish. This would be an indicator that either a good weather condition has made the fish active or the larger fish have moved out of the channel to some shallow point. Knowing this what would you do? Would you continue to just catch the little ones or knowing the structure situations, would you move out to the deltas or cuts?

While there is little difference in water depth between the cuts and the flats the IS a DIFFERENCE. Breakline. The fish will use it. Heck they do I have caught them in between shore and the channel. They use the breaklines on the edge of the flats to move from the channel to the shoreline. They ARE NOT looking for shore line. They just happen to find it. They are however, because of STABLE weather and water, moving shallower and following the paths that they can see. They will if weather and water conditions permit, stay in the cuts in between movements. But this is NOT their home.

Referencing the Structure, Breaks and Breaklines Volume of the Home Study course would be good if you didn't understand what exactly I'm saying. Or if you think I'm wrong about my interpretation let me know please. Either on here or email. I'd love to talk about it.

Come on guys lets get some discussion going on the forum. I see that there are a lot of views but few posts. So just talk about this stuff.

Joshua Douglas Travis

Thanks for your great posts and your service to our country!

- home is the deep channel areas
- wouldn't matter (for me) what season, I would first find your anchoring positions on the bottom of the map without a lure, look them a bit with the depth finder, troll them for a short amount of time, and then spend some time on the cast. How long I would spend on each spot would depend on how much time I have. If I had just 1 day it would be run and gun. If I had 3-4 days the first couple days I'd be thorough. During spawn, after covering the couple key spots and finding nothing I'd look at the shallower spawning area.
-I don't know enough to answer why the fish aren't using the 8-10' delta to spawn but my guess is it's not shallow enough. would like to know the answer.
-The cold front question is a great one and a little difficult for me because my thinking on how the fish will respond is a slightly different depending on the season. Good movements start occuring 3-4 days later I guess? I'm going to default to the bottom left anchoring position as the first/earliest. Would like to hear more on this.
-For the shallow water spawning situation I would start deep - 8ish, and work my way in, casting the whole area thoroughly. Either with anchor positions or using the trolling motor to control the boat.
-If I'm with a young person I'll balance catching the small ones with going after big ones. If it's anyone else I could care less - big fish or get out of the boat.

Speaking of non-spoonpluggers and your question, on a side note I took a family member out night fishing for bass under great weather conditions. The big bass - 4/5 pounders, were moving. He lost 5 big bass at the boat because everytime the fish got close to the boat he started shaking and freaked out. I landed 4/5. It was a fantastic night and I was feeling quietly proud showing off spoonplug knowledge. It was my best 3 hours on that particular lake ever. Then he said to me "Yeah, that was fun, but I'd prefer to cast the shallows and catch numbers." Swear to God. Now back to your post!...

Brett,

Thank you very much for your support and response to my post. Makes it seem worth it. I have to apologize in advance for any delay in my reply to your questions. I am actually moving out the door asap to conduct an operation. So...

One answer real quick, I'll get more in depth soon. Fish not spawning on the 8-10' delta. Some will in small numbers and if the weather and water conditions do not allow them to move toward shore. The majority however, and the more consistent catch during this period of time will be in water shallower than 8-10' WITH STRUCTURE. So for now lets think about WHY the fish go shallower for spawning. There is one very easy answer and probably the only one we can figure out. After speaking with John Bales on the subject of spawn/spring, it has been noticed that a lot of Spoonpluggers have issues with spring in general. I can not answer why the fish do this from a physiological standpoint. Yet I do have some answers on the matter that I will try to explain later today.

Have a great day guys.

Josh

Josh,
I'll take a crack at it.

"On the map I posted, where is the home of the fish?"

The home of the fish is the deepest water in the area. In this case, the 19-20 foot channel.

"- If you were going to this lake with the map I showed, where would you make your first cast or would you cast first?"

Since you stated there is electric motors only, I would begin my casting at both of your Anchor points, at the Delta humps. Under most weather and water conditions, this is the only place you need to go to "fill the boat" so to speak. This is where the fish make "first contact" with the structure.

"Spawn/Summer/Fall? How long would you spend there?"

In the summer, I would start at the contact point and if nothing was going, move up that great looking breakline, until contact is made. Bad weather condition.....the humps for sure.
In the Fall, I will be back out on those humps.
In the early Spring, I will be out on the humps with small jigs and small spinnerbaits working the deeper spots around the humps and main channel.
Later, the fish could be anywhere between the main channel and those great looking shoreline features and as the peak of the spawn arrives, they will become stacked all along the breakline very near those spawning areas. In fact, that "wash" or cut in the upper right, could have the mother load waiting to be caught.

"-On the top of the map next to shore you see where I wrote " spawning " How did the fish get there?"

They followed the breaks and breaklines in the area of the two cuts, or small channels.

"Why did they go there?"

They couldnt help themselves, they had to go to spawn, but rest assured, if a bad cold front came through, they will be right back out in the deepest water. A very mild front may let them settle down somewhere in the cut.



"Why did they not use the 8-13' delta situations next to deep water?"

Many times, they do, but for the most part, the smaller fish do. The breaks and breaklines lead them up the cut.

"-Would it be reasonable, with water depths in mind, to catch quality adult fish on ANY parts of these structures 1 day after a cold front?"

Very much so!

"How many days after a cold front would you expect to get a good movement? "

With the depths shown 3-4 at best.

"Where at first/earliest?"

At the Delta Humps where they contact the structure.

"-There are no anchoring points that I showed for the shallow water. Where would you anchor or how would you approach spawning fish in this situation?"

I personally would use my electric motor and start near that wash and work my way across the small bars and along those shallow breaklines checking speeds with a variety of lures.


"-If you were fishing with a non-spooplugger, he was casting the shore and yall started catching yearling fish. This would be an indicator that either a good weather condition has made the fish active or the larger fish have moved out of the channel to some shallow point. Knowing this what would you do? Would you continue to just catch the little ones or knowing the structure situations, would you move out to the deltas or cuts? "

I would work my way down the breaklines along the cuts going towards the delta humps.

This is MY interpretation. I could be wrong.
Now lets get some more to join in here
We want to hear YOUR interpretations.
Thanks Josh. This is very enjoyable to do and a great teaching tool.
Thanks
Steve

Steve you nailed in on the dang head. The cuts are the ONLY way these fish get from the channel to the shallow area.

-Without the cuts there would have to be what? Something to lead the fish across the flats.

Steve the cut the upper right wash/cut IS were the mother load is on good weather/water days and during prespawn. During the period were I start seeing fish on beds around the launch ramp I don't fish but during this time the water is clear enough to see down to 2-3' so I do go looking around.

Come on guys any other ideas?

Brett I am still trying to find the time to come give you some good answers, you deserve it.

Josh

Brett commented: "I don't know enough to answer why the fish aren't using the 8-10' delta to spawn but my guess is it's not shallow enough. would like to know the answer."


- There are a LOT of personal opinions on the matter of WHY fish go so shallow to spawn. Some people say they like the warm water, we know this isn't true a fish is happy at any temperature. A "changing" temperature is what he doesn't go for.
Some also say its because they just "like" to spawn shallow, I say not true, "A fish has the brain of an English pee and has never had an original thought in his life." My own opinion in the matter is based off of watching fish behavior during the spawning season, and a conversation that I had with a couple of GREAT Spoonpluggers.

1. We know that small non-game fish tend to inhabit "shallow" areas. Therefore the male fish "normally" stays on the bed and guards it. The female fish being Larger and more reluctant to move shallow, waits until weather and water conditions are moderate to good, moves up, lays eggs and leaves. She will normally NOT hang around. So where is she? She is in deep water again.

2. With the males on the beds guarding the eggs and keeping: bugs, bluegill, crayfish, etc. the eggs are "safe" in the shallow water, unless weather/water FORCE them to leave or a fisherman takes the males away.

Lets turn the situation a bit and say the fish for some reason "weather/water conditions", bed on the delta situations at the cut and channel intersection.

1. The males are now done with building/clearing the bed. The females move up on the delta, they lay their eggs and return to channel. Now, the males that are designed, to stay in the shallows and guard the eggs from predators, now they have no predators they can fight off.

2. So the males attempt to guard the eggs and all is well for the first two days. This may come as a shock to some people but fish are cannibalistic and will eat each other and their eggs. Now Mr. Perry told us something a long time ago that plays into this a little, " A fish doesn't have to leave deep water to eat, his diet may change but he will survive". This being the case lets say that the females happen to move up to the delta situation. When the larger females that are around say 8lbs, arrive they are confronted by the males, weighing in at a whopping 2-4lbs.

3. Here is why "most" of the fish do not bed that deep and instead go shallower. The females CAN and WILL eat the males. They also CAN and WILL eat the eggs that the males used to be guarding. This being the case the males will most likely leave, then the eggs are probably as good as gone.

-This does not in any way say they have to but that they can eat the eggs and or lay their eggs in this 8-10' delta situation. Fish(LM) that are 1-4lbs are NOT compatible with adults weighing in over 5lbs. Mr. Perry recorded a pair of LM in sanctuary depth water one time. When movement occurred the fish turned, looked at each other, and one tried to eat the other one. He just couldn't fit the other in his mouth. When this ended they went dormant and all was quiet. This is just another example of why the two differently sized fish are not compatible, the big ones can eat the small ones! This is also the reason I think the fish go to the extreme shallows to bed. The depth at which they go to bed will always be determined by weather and water conditions, not by what I am talking about. The point behind what I am talking about is I believe these are the reasons WHY, when weather and water conditions are correct that the fish go as shallow as the shore line.

Just one more thing on this so that we are clear. Water color WILL absolutely affect were the fish spawn(DEPTH). Also the species differ on spawning locations and depth. Yet still some fish WILL spawn deeper than others. One thing for sure here is that this is being discussed for the immediate period prior to spawn and following. As our teacher said,"taking fish off beds isn't our cup of tea"

Brett does this give you the type of answer that you were looking for on the "why" the fish go so shallow to spawn? Remember this is also only my opinion. Anyone else with valid reasoning please chime in and share some knowledge.

Joshua Douglas Travis

Josh,

I believe you are correct here. I also believe that water clarity has an effect as well.

Out here in these deep CLEAR waters, we can see beds in the spring in 12 to 20 feet of water. Lots of beds.
On Lake Havasu (ultra clear) we can see 12 to 15 pound LM on beds in 20+ feet of water on a regular basis.
This lake has the Florida strain bass, and 10-12 pounders are common. But.........most are caught off the beds in the spring.
About the only time most of these guys can catch them.
So, I believe the clearer the water, the deeper they can and do spawn.

Steve,

I cannot agree with you more. The water clarity as we all know, you better than most with those lakes, affects all movements. So with this in mind I can absolutely say that the clearer the water, and yours is really clear, the deeper the beds.

Thanks for the input Steve.

Josh

Good stuff! I always thought they moved to the shallows to spawn because they needed the sunlight/warmth to incubate the eggs. In clear lakes the beds can be deeper because the sunlight is able to penetrate deeper and warm the eggs.

Bink,

Good possibility of what you said. The reason I never really leaned tward the incubation factor is due to a couple of reasons but I'm no scientist. For the sake of learning (you very well could be way more correct then me) my reasons are:

-In the deep clear lakes (Highlanders) that I have fished. Even though there was considerable light penetration to 10-15 feet; I cannot say that the temperature at that depth would be much different then in a dingy lake. Now Steve most likely has much more information on Extremely clear water and water temps at greater depths. I do know though that I have swam in a few of both clear and dingy/dark waters. Both get cold to me after about five feet. Remember the water warms from the top. If the fish are spawning as in Steve's situation at 20', I wouldn't imagine the water is significantly warmer at that depth as opposed to in dingy water. What I would venture to say I know for fact is that, the water being clear down to 20' and the light penetration present(weather and water) caused the fish to STOP at that 20' depth to spawn just as it would on any migration route. These are just my opinions.

SO...I have to say that when you begin to discuss the "Why's" to a fish's location on a basis of something other than Structure, Breaks, and Breaklines your getting into dangerous territory, be careful and remember that they are the KEY to fishing success. We all must keep in mind that weather and water conditions are what control how shallow a fish goes and these are the only things that we can observe to consistently catch fish. The purpose of the above and previous posts is for a discussion of what makes the fish go there, because he dose NOT have to go shallow and most of their adult life they will not. So just like Mr. Perry studied and gave us "the what makes him tick and how everything affected him" we are discussing what biologically makes him go shallow since the fish doesn't think one way or the other of it. Talking about subjects like this are SHUNNED by some but why? For how else do you learn. What I will say is that NOTHING we are saying here guys is fact, It is all opinions. Please keep this in mind. The guidelines we all have, are proven fact and while they can be greatly expanded upon, they alone WILL lead you to fish all the time.

Is there any other comments about spawn depths?

Josh

-The cold front question is a great one and a little difficult for me because my thinking on how the fish will respond is a slightly different depending on the season. Good movements start occuring 3-4 days later I guess? I'm going to default to the bottom left anchoring position as the first/earliest. Would like to hear more on this.

Brett,
You are correct that the fish will react slightly different depending on season. To be sure we are on the correct and same page, fish WILL react to cold fronts no matter what season it is. The determining factor as to how much they will react is as always the WATER COLOR. This is the single most important factor to consider when looking at a fishing situation and will undoubtedly effect your actions and the fish’s on that particular day.
-Good water color whether a yellow green, milky or just dark or dingy water will certainly help the fishing situation, the fish will still however be affected to some degree or another. Check it out.
-Water depths are another consideration in how sever a cold front will affect the fish and his movements. If the sanctuary depth water is less than 25’ we can only “expect” the fish to be more severely effected then those in water that is deeper. The shallower the water the more harshly a cold front could affect the fish. With this in mind we also must remember that if you have a clear or extra clear water color in combination with a highlander or a canyon type lake then the fish could very well be out of our reach. In this case we would just simply follow the “guidelines” and go toward the headwaters in search of better water color. In all cases basic spoonplugging guidelines will bring you to the location to fish and the fish themselves.
Starting from the beginning, the body of water that my answers are based on is 25-30’ in the channel and a dingy water color:
1) Pre-spawn up to spawn- As stated in all spoonplugging material, during the early season the fish will use short, steep structures. On these structures the fish have fast access to deep water and they will use it if weather forces them to. Let’s assume that a cold front has just passed through. You would still strain the shallows to the deep on the correct structures from a seasonal point. After this, I would focus my efforts on the channel breaklines, contact point. My personal experience is that during this time period you may still get some straggler migration on to the structure but hardly any large fish. The next day the fish, driven by the “urge” to spawn should begin to move back onto the structure. The fish seem to be slightly more likely to return to shallower structure sooner than they would have during any other season. They also seem to be a little “tougher” if you will, and will stay on the structure a little longer, but they will leave, they have no choice in the matter.
2) Post-spawn- Once again the Green Book and the Home Study Course cover this area in depth, under weather and water conditions. The fish after spawning move back to their deep water sanctuary and are in most cases, dormant for a few weeks. There are as Mr. Perry told us short and scattered movements during this period. This, once again just an opinion, is the time when weather (cold fronts) affects the fish the most. I base this on the fact that the fish are already reluctant to leave deep water, they are recovering. So if they are already reluctant to migrate shallow and then a cold front comes through, lights off. Period. I personally love live bait for this period of the season. My thought is from the video Mr. Perry made of movement not leaving the fish’s deep water sanctuary. If they become active but don’t move shallow, I will be there waiting, and most likely the speed wouldn’t be to fast. To sum up this period, I would say to look at the break down in the Home Study Series where Mr. Perry laid it out. Then I would take it to the extreme and add a day or so onto the lay out. This could change of course if the light condition improved or a warm front moved in, which would improve the light condition anyway.
3) Summer or warmer season- Not to seem like a butt head but this is the section that is written about most in weather and water conditions and there should be NO Question about the effects that a cold front has on the fish during this period. But for the sake of conversation,
Cold Front = Dormant = Deep = Slow = Little or no movement
If you had the choice wait a few days like Mr. Perry said because the fish simply go home. They do not have to move shallow. Just as Mr. Perry laid out, as the days pass following a cold front, the fishing/ movements get better. High cirrus clouds will be the first sign of better fishing. Winds quiet down, and the fish get back into their groove of daily migrations shallower on structure. During summer months it is especially important to continue to check the shallow water of the structure that you’re fishing.

4) Fall- During this part of the year the weather seems to be a little more cooperative, unless a hurricane shows up and even with that great fishing is had before it hits. With the weather being considerably more stable during this part of the year it takes little imagination to see why such great catches can be made( by Spoonpluggers). The fish begin to move back towards their steep, short structures. They are however just as susceptible to weather and water conditions now as they were during the summer and you should go about your fishing the same way with the exception of structure type. As always the fish under adverse weather conditions will revert to their deep water sanctuary. Once again following the pattern that Mr. Perry laid out would be the smartest bet during fall. Most bodies of water will have a change in water color this time of year. In my home lake I am lucky to get a wonderful “brown cypress” kidding, it is bad for fishing. The saving grace is that if you have gone downstairs and know your structure situation for the season then it’s a matter of applying the guidelines and then waiting on them at the contact point.
5) Winter- Fishing during the cold months, on water that is not frozen, can be miserable yet very fun. The season has to be kept in mind in order to fish the correct structure. As far as the cold front is considered the fish react much like they do in post spawn. They are as we know already scattered and reluctant to move shallow. They are slow and mostly non chasing. So with this in mind you can see how the cold front is BAD for you as the fisherman. The fish that may have moved under stable conditions are very, very unlikely to move now. The best bet is to wait. It’s cold anyway so why suffer needlessly? Wait until you have pre-frontal conditions and then go get them by following the guidelines.

great posts. Thanks!

I never had much hassles with cold fronts or dormant fish or any of that stuff during the colder season simply because I didn't waste time fishing any reservoirs that were not muddied up or deeply stained.
Give me that muddy water in a big creek arm and I will produce fish in shallow water....just simply doing straggler trolling and staying out of anything deeper than 10 feet. Why subject yourself to the pain and nuisance of that deep water madness if it can be avoided?
Down there in West Point, all the way into Yellow Jacket Creek (as far as you could go after they dropped the pool level) you could have field day when it was muddy.
There it goes again.....THE BIGGEST ISSUE CONCERNING YOUR SUCCESS WILL BE WATER COLOR!
I asked Buck once why he didnt mention a lot of the tricks concerning muddy water fishing and he was quick to reply "because most of them will wind up doing the same thing when the muddy water season is over"
He was a big advocate of "bank chunking" in muddy water. Especially to that little clear area about 0 inches to maybe a foot from the bank in the winter. The bass will go all the way and stay in those areas in muddy conditions...sometimes you must cast right up on the dirt, clay, or pea gravel bank itself and then drag the lure into the water to get fish.
30 years ago before Lake Lanier became the nuthouse it is today, there used to be a group that called themselves "Tennessee Jigger Pole Fishermen" who would come down here and slaughter the bass during that muddy water winter condition.
They used long heavy cane poles with about 10 feet of 100 pound test
line and big treble hooks. They would slap a gob of red wigglers on that treble hook and move along the steep muddy shorelines near points and just lower that gob of worms into that little clear area I mentioned and move it up and down. They caught HUNDREDS...while the locals were all whining about "the water is too muddy".
The same thing can be done today...you havent lived until you see the ruckus an 8 pound bass can make when he finds out he is hooked on 10 feet of 100 pound test line.
It's the same old thing over and over....water color...water color...water color...water color.
As for "falling back when you stop learning", I used to argue with him that I had learned all I wanted to learn, his stuff worked, and if I had to drive further to find muddy water, well so be it. (of course gasoline was only 30cents a gallon then too).
In this fishing thing, I sometimes believe our minds can become our own worse enemy..."paralysis by analysis", if you will. Just find muddy water and start dragging that junky spoonplug around in it and the lures will do the rest.
selah.