The Spoonpluggers Forum

I never call 8 foot water "the deep water". It is always classified as the shallows regardless where it is found. It may be the deepest water in the lake (assuming there is no hole or slot you have not found), but it is not the deep. In lakes like yours, the fish will bury deep under pads, floating vegetation, weeds or the heaviest cover they can find. It could even be way back iunder an undercut bank, if one exists. In reality, that shallow water is the exact reason you only occasionally find the fish in in open water. They venture there only under extremely good weather conditions.

Not one person on this forum decided or declared brown cypress water to be worse fishing water than clear. Mr. Perry, in his later years, declared this to be a fact. You do not have to accept this, but, if he decided it to be a fact, it is good enough for me. I realize I lack the knowledge and experience to reach conclusions like this.

As is my nature, I will attempt to help you. I will start by saying you seem to be at a fork in the road. It is decision time for you and you must decide which path to take. You have learned enough to have some success which might be your undoing. Your first choice is to continue what you are doing and disregard Mr. Perry's teachings as being fact. Your current success may be enough for you, so you refuse to do anything to get better. In that case, I suggest you sign off this forum and go fishing.

Or, you can accept that 8 feet of water is the shallows. You can accept that what Mr. Perry wrote is the gospel according to fish. You could study the written material, learn what, where, why, when and how. By studying, you might discover how much you are restricting your fishing by sticking to just that one shallow, brown cypress lake. By studying and expanding your fishing horizions, you might become a good fisherman. But, you'd better be careful. If you work at it long enough and hard enough, you might become a great fisherman. But if you stick to that one shallow lake, you will never become a good fisherman, let alone a great one. You will only make a good catch on your lake when conditions are extremely good and you will not even be able to identify the good conditions that resulted in your catch. That would be sad.

This is still a free country and you are free to pick and choose. Which will it be?

Good fishing

After reading some of these post, I had decided not to waste my time posting again. But one more on this subject. One guy asked me, how much should the distance be between the top and bottom of a breakline.
Naturally no one has this answer.Since I can't say for certain that the distance was to great,you can't say that it was not. Mr.Perry tells us that the fish have to see the structure to use it.This brings up the ? have far can they see. Mr.Perry states maybe 15' in clear water maybe,then he states that as they get older, they lose some of their abilites just as we do.So old adult large bass may see only 7' more or less.So if he can see no father than that,this tilted flat or as some of you call it a breakline only rises a little over 1/2'' over 7'.The guy that made the post also stated that the deeper water use to be an old river bed.Now water flows in a straight line and at the same depth untill it hits something that causes it to change. that somthing a change in composition,usually something hard.So when the bottom got a little shallower it was because of bottom composition change BREAKLINE.His description also leads me to beleive the 11' section is oblong,meaning that there is a tilted flat all around it. So how do the fish get to shallow water? They get there by minute details on the bottom,BREAKS.Mr. Perry also says that fish use breaklines because it is something they can see and follow,and because of a light change . Lighter at top, darker at bottom. My interpation is the so called depth breakline does not qualify for either of these.As for 3'' breaklines sure, so long as it happens quickly, not over a long distance.
I had several excerpts from the study course, but the first time i tried to make this post it was all lost,as I tried to submit it. So only one this time Volume 6 page62 figures 56 56A.
DAVID

The old river bed that I described at the beginning was long ,wide and straight. When I first trolled this area, I ziged and zaged back and forth between the 10ft. and the 11 ft. It didn't take long for me to realize that the fish were almost always caught on the bottom break. So I narrowed it down to pretty much the 11ft. zone, however, periodically, I would bounce back up to the 10ft. area and check it out. You want to be in the right place when the movement happens, because it is almost always very short. DO NOT STOP TO EAT LUNCH. It happens that quick.
As for the 10ft. or deeper water, In Florida lakes, if you have 10ft., it just makes your fishing so much easier once you locate these holes, instead of looking all over the place, in the weeds, and under the lilly pads. Many Florida lakes do not have 10ft. of water. Personally, I eliminate those lakes. When you drive 600 miles, you want to eliminate as many bad, tough situations as you can.
As my great friend Frank Hammill once told me, why fish in a swimming pool when you can fish in a bathtub. most of the water contains no fish.
There is no doubt Floridaboy that other spoonpluggers that have ACTUALLY FISHED FLORIDA LAKES numerous times can make a huge difference in your success if you are willing to open up your mind up and listen.
MOST GREAT SPOONPLUGGERS ELIMINATE THEIR FISHING DOWN TO THAT BATHTUB I SPOKE OF.
Thanks, Kenny

FOR spnplgr and spoonplugger kenny.....JUST SO YOU KNOW...I AM OPENING UP MY MIND...THAT IS WHY I AM ON THIS SITE...WHEN I PUT MY REMARKS ON HERE I GET RESPONSE...EVEN IF MY REMARKS ARE WRONG I GET A LOT OF FEEDBACK THAT I HOPE IS GOING TO HELP ME WITH MY FISHING...ONE OF THE BIGGEST PROBLEMS HERE IN MY AREA IS THAT 99 % OF THE LAKES "ARE" SHALLOW AND CYPRESS COLORED...I HAVE TO MAKE DUE WITH WHAT I HAVE...I SALTWATER FISH THE INTRACOASTAL A LOT ALSO...I KNOW ALL ABOUT FISH USING STRUCTURE...THERE IS PLENTY OF IT IN THE RIVER HERE...I HAVE ALWAYS FISHED STRUCTURE IN SALTWATER...I JUST HAVE TROUBLE WITH IT IN THESE NATURAL LAKES AROUND HERE...THEY ARE LITERALLY STRUCTURE FREE...THAT IS WHY I AM SO INTERESTED IN THE TALK GOING AROUND ABOUT THE 5" BREAKS...I WANT TO MAKE MYSELF BELIEVE IT AND USE IT AND PROVE THAT IT WORKS...I HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO FISH FOR THE LAST 4 WEEKENDS BECAUSE OF THE WEATHER...I AM TAKING ALL THIS INFORMATION IN AND PLAN ON A DIFFERENT APPROACH AT MY LITTLE LAKE THE NEST TIME...IT DOES HAVE A 10 FOOT SLOT IN IT...IT IS VERY SMALL, BUT, IT IS 10 FEET DEEP...I AM GOING TO START PUTTING A LOT OF EFFORT INTO THAT LITTLE SLOT AND SEE IF I CAN MAKE IT PRODUCE SO I CAN POST ON HERE THAT YOU GUYS ARE ALL RIGHT...I DO UNDERSTAND THAT FISH WILL USE THE WEEDS FOR A HOME WHEN DEEP WATER IS NOT FOUND...THERE ARE NO WEED BEDS IN THIS LAKE...THE FISH HAVE GOT TO BE OUT IN THE LAKE SOMEWHERE...THERE USED TO BE CAT TAILS ALL THE WAY AROUND THIS LAKE...WE WOULD CAST TO THEM AND CATCH LOTS OF FISH...HENCE: WEEDS WERE HOME...I MEAN BIG BASS TOO...THERE HAVE BEEN LOTS OF 14 15 POUND BASS CAUGHT OUT OF THIS LAKE OVER THE YEARS...THEY KILLED ALL THE WEEDS AND CAT TAILS A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO AND PLANTED LITTLE PLOTS OF GRASSES AND BULLRUSHSES...THIS IS WHAT GOT ME INTO TRYING TO FIGURE WHAT THE BASS ARE CALLING HOME NOW...THE FISH ARE STILL IN THE LAKE BECAUSE THE GAME COMMISSION SHOCKED AND TESTED A COUPLE YEARS AGO AND STATED THAT THERE WAS A VERY LARGE BASS POPULATION...I HAVE GOT TO GET SOME PICTURES ON HERE TO SHOW YOU THAT WE DO PRETTY GOOD HERE...JUST TRYING TO PUT THIS LITTLE LAKE IN MY BACK POCKET...I AM LISTENING TO WHAT YOU GUYS ARE SAYING...I JUST LIKE TO THROW A LITTLE IN NOW AND THEN TO SEE WHAT KIND OF ANSWERS I GET...ALL OF YOU HAVE INSPIRED ME TO PUT MORE EFFORT INTO MY SPOONPLUGGING...I HAVE HAD THE GREEN BOOK FOR EVER...I THINK I BOUGHT IT IN THE LATE 70'S...I ALSO HAVE HAD THE STUDY COURSE FOR A LONG TIME...I AM JUST ONE OF THOSE GUYS THAT ALWAYS WANTS TO KNOW WHY WHY WHY....EVERY TIME I CATCH A FISH I WANT TO KNOW WHY HE WAS THERE AND WHY I CAUGHT HIM...I'LL TALK MORE LATER...GOTTA DO SOME REAL WORK HERE FOR A WHILE...RAY

I just finished reading this thread from the beginning. It is awesome and one of the best since the site was started. I am learning a lot. While reading I found a couple of open questions and I thought I would mention them.

First was when was the "OFFICIAL" change which showed us that Cypress water was worse than Clear. I am trying to get a hold of Terry to get the specifics but as far as I know I don't think there was an official declaration. Depending on which edition of the Green Book you have everyone is correct. The earlier editions say "Clear" is the worst. The later editions say "Brown Cypress". I know that the Instructors are teaching Brown Cypress is the worst. Which is in line with the latest editions of both the Green Book and the Home Study.

I have absolutely no idea why Buck made the change but that was the latest information.

Now I never met Mr Perry. But I did see video's from one of the Chattanooga Jamboree's and Buck does discuss briefly the change in water color classification. I was quick. Way less than 5 minutes and certainly no details but he made the change in the mid 1990's (John just told me it was in the late '70's). Our best chance to get a specific answer is to get someone who was there in Chattanooga at the time to write something. Frank Hamill could answer but I am not sure if he is able. Maybe spnplgr or spnplgrkenny who were at those outings could share anything they may remember.

Now something that could be causing issues with these 1 foot or less depth changes might be equipment related. If you're not using a flasher, you may be able to find the depth change but you probably won't be able to fish that same breakline. I do not make it a secret that I LOVE my Vexilar Flasher. With dual cone transducers (9 and 12 degrees) PLUS the ability to reduce the Power of the sound wave being produced (I am NOT talking about the gain) you can find and fish very subtle breaklines.

Now Buck and others didn't have the electronics we have today. The truly scary part is that Buck and others found all the things we are talking about right now WITHOUT the use of any electronics at all. But today we don't have to abuse ourselves. Whatever equipment you use, if the Flasher has the features I wrote about you should be able to see the the small breaklines we are talking about. I just want to add lastly that some of the older Flashers MAY not be cutting it. Although John would have to write about that. I never used anything but Vexilar.

Fran,
I too believe this to be a fantastic conversation. More should join in. A lot of knowledge here for sure.

I still have and use one of the old Spoonplugger Depth finders with the Needle. When working the Florida lakes in the late 70's, I had no problem seeing and running 6 inch breaklines. I wish they still made them. I love mine. Just afraid it will bite the bullet any day is all. It has served me well for many years.

If i recall correctly, I remember Don Dickson saying in 79 that he thought Brown Cypress was worse than clear. Never thought to ask him why. My bad.
Steve

The first few years I fished florida lakes, I fished some brown cypress lakes with bad results. For some reason the fish seemed to always become active in the yellow green lakes between 9 and 11 a.m. and in the afternoon between 3 and 4 p.m.
When I fished the brown cypress lakes, unfortunately I never fished them in low light. I took for granted that the fish would move about the same time as they did in the yellow green lakes. I know frank generally stopped on the way home and fished orange lake. It was brown cypress. It had a fairly deep slot in it. I believe Frank said it was all hard bottom, but not sure. Frank trolled the slot breakline and caught a few big bass there. A sinkhole then developed in the lake virtually ruining it. Some one told me that Mr. Perry said that about brown cypress water possibly being worse than clear, however I personally never heard him say it. Kenny

Since we have been discussing natural lakes,thought I look at some of ours here in nc.Was reading up on lake waccamaw,found something very interesting.
(It is the largest of the natural Carolina Bay Lakes (Bladen Lake Group) with a total surface area of 8,936 acres.The term "Bay" Lake stems from the abundance of bay trees (Magnolia virginiana L., Gordonia lasianthus Ellis, and Persea spp., Frey, 1949) growing in the numerous swampy oval depressions on the Carolina coastal plain.[2] The Lake has been estimated to be 15,000 -30,000 years old although older fossils have been found upon the shores and in 2008 a [whale fossil] was found in the lake [3]. Scientists have removed the bones of a whale that they say may date back nearly 1 - 3 million years. Once restored, the skull of the whale will be on display at the forestry museum in Whiteville NC.[4].)
Lake Waccamaw

Sunset from State Park
Location Columbus County, North Carolina
Coordinates 34°17′16″N 78°30′31″W / 34.28778°N 78.50861°W / 34.28778; -78.50861Coordinates: 34°17′16″N 78°30′31″W / 34.28778°N 78.50861°W / 34.28778; -78.50861
Primary inflows Big Creek; First Little, Second Little and Third Little Creeks
Basin countries United States

Surface area 8,936 acres (3,616 ha)
Average depth 7.5 ft (2.3 m)
Surface elevation 43 ft (13 m)
Now that would have been one to hang into.


DAVID

Here is what Mr. Perry told me. The reason he put the brown cyprus being the worst is because of a lack of depth in the Florida lakes. Depth is the real key here. It is all about weather and water conditions. It wouldnt matter if a lake is in Florida or Wisconson. If a fish does not have depth to off set a bad condition, he will become very dormant. Sick or so dormant he would almost appear dead if you were to go in amongst and look eye to eye. You could put a bait in front of him and not get a reaction at any speed. A lack of depth to offset a bad condition is a show stopper for even the best spoonplugger. And this dormant period could last for several days. I believe one fellow said on one of these posts that he wouldnt fish a Florida lake for at least 6 days after a front. The fish adapt to his environment and make the necessary changes in his activity in order to survive. The severity of the front will decide how dormant the fish become and how long it takes them to come back to where we can make a catch again.
Lets change the situation a bit. Lets take a shallow Florida lake or it could be a lake up north and lets give it a 40 foot deep hole. It could be clear or cyprus. Now the fish have a situation where they have the depth to off set these changing conditions. If you and I are good enough to interpret exactly where the fish are going to be and we know how to present lures both trolling and casting, then we have a very good chance of making a catch. These fish in the deeper water may become active at some point in the day where the fish that do not have depth are in trouble. You and I would be in trouble too.
If you would ask me if all things being equal in depth(speaking of a shallow water sanctuary) , which one is worse, I do not know the answer to this scientificly. You would need to know which water color would light penetrate the deepest and this should help figure out which is better or worse.
Depth is most important in this case. Stability is the key for the fish and where ever things are most stable is where the fish will want to be in a changing condition. If you asked Mr. Perry where do you think the fish will be at any particular time he will say where ever things are most stable.
He picked the cyprus lakes as being the most difficult over the clear because most of the clear lakes have depth and you and I can interpret the deeper waters and fish deeper structure with wire line and the bigger lures. Dont come back on here and crucify me for saying that mose clear lakes have deep water. I am using this as an example.
Here's the real deal. We as spoonpluggers have been handed down fishing guidelines from Mr. Perry. If we follow these guidelines and believe that what he says is true, we have a real good chance of going anywhere, any time and have a good chance of catching a fish. You put a good spoonplugger on any body of water, natural or man made, clear water or dark, spring, summer, winter, ice on the lake or out of a boat and we know what we have to do to catch a fish. If your not there yet, then you have some work to do if you have the self motivation to do so and if this is what you want. Fishing guidelines is what we have that no one else has. This is what guides us to be at the right place, at the right time and fishing in the right manner. Every lake is different. There are so many variables in fishing and they are constantly changing. Every structure situation is different. You and I rarely catch the fish the same way twice in a row. A fishermans ability to be able to adapt to these changes and observe what he see's and know the when, where, what, why and how in fishing is an awesome thing to learn. There is a lot involved in all of this. This is also why we never stop learning. In the blue book, Mr. Perry says that fishing independance is a good thing to have. John PS............ Sorry to repeat so much but felt it was important.

This has been some great stuff to read and ponder. Having read all the posts on this topic and taken it all in, there are three things that stand out. 1. Mr Perry gave us sound guidelines to follow. 2. On any body of water fish will be where things are most stable. 3. There are times when weather and water conditions are so tough that I am not good enough to catch them. This being said I know that if the conditions are somewhat stable, I can catch fish fairly consistent by following the guidlines and working the available stuctures as deep as I can interpret. I am not quite quite good enough yet to find the real deep breaks in the sanctuary depths as some of the most advanced are but I stive to get there. One thing I am certain of is that every time I make a good catch, a light comes on and I say oh yeh, thats just like Mr Perry stated. As they say you can take that to the bank!! Bill Beck.

John what are speaking of when you say the blue book? Only blue book I have is the structure situations book.
DAVID

David, It is material that was put together that was given to students in and around the time period when Don Dixon was doing the on the water teaching. Dont quote me on this for sure. There are a few comments (not many) that he makes that are no where else to be found but nothing major. He talks about bluegill and what they do and talks about the diffenence between the largemouth and smallmouth. A smallmouth has a tendancy to take a free running lure more than the largemouth. Thats something that I found out was so true on lake erie. Its always the same thing though. I am still learning things that he already knew. I know a few people who have the books but not many and they are not available to purchase. Like I said, its mostly right from the other material with just a few more added. John

Thanks John
DAVID

When I was a kid, my daddy would whack me good for spending time on foolish ventures like this one. However, I would like Spoonpluggers to succeed, so I will make one final attempt at explaining why and how the small features in a Florida lake work. I will take a different approach this time. We will look at the lake from the bottom up instead of the surface down. Additionally, our journey will begin before the lake was impounded. You must “play along” by envisioning what I describe.

We begin with a discussion of the differences between a natural river that flows through a large, wide, shallow Florida swamp and a river that flows through higher ground.

A river running through such a swamp flows through weeds, grass, and other aquatic plants. Due to plant life and slow currents, erosion of the soil in the river bottom is slow. Fifty yards from the riverbed, there is no longer enough current to erode the bottom at all. This is the point where the great flat that extends to the shoreline begins. The bank of the riverbed is the 50-yard slope. To see this, the swamp would have to be drained and the bottom examined very closely to identify the tiny features. At both the top and bottom of the sloping riverbank, there exists a minute change in depth that Mr. Perry identified as the top and bottom of breakline. You observe there is no other structure as far as the eye can see.

Now, think about a fish’s life in one of these lakes. Think about the structure those fish have at their disposal. Think about the fact that fish have very little water deeper than 10 feet. They would move to a more suitable structure, but none exists in the entire lake. They cannot get on the next bus and move to a better lake. They are forced to use what nature provided. In this case, the best structure is the bottom breakline, regardless how small the depth change happens to be. Fortunately, nature gave the fish the capability to see and use the existing structure. Nature also provided the fish a survival technique in this shallow environment. I call it extreme dormancy (John referred to it previously). Do you feel sorry for those fish yet? Fran is right when he said it is remarkable that fishermen found the structure at all.

A river that runs through high ground is usually narrow and deep, depending on flow volume and the composition of the bottom. It has easily visible and well-defined banks and significant changes in depth, maybe even a waterfall. A lake with one of these rivers running through it will have many breaks, steep breaklines, ledges, deep holes and other structure including man-made structure, in most cases. The fish have it made, compared to those in the Florida lakes. The fishermen have it made too, compared to the fishermen on those Florida lakes. Fishermen can easily see and find those quick, sharp breaklines and other bottom features so important to fish. Are you happy for those fish yet?

If a fisherman has experience only in the high ground river type reservoir, it is unlikely he would ever suspect these minimal structures could be the key to a lake. Mr. Perry confirmed their importance and that was good enough for me. I would have been SOL on my Florida trips if the experienced guys had not taken me under their wings and explained the small details the fish use. It blew me away. My interpretation of that small bottom breakline is: In their daily movements & migrations, the fish travel horizontally along the 11 foot feature already identified as the bottom of breakline. Large catches has demonstrated many times over that this is an accurate statement. I refer you to spnplgrkenny’s statement about fishing in a bathtub. He had them hemmed up! Remember, entire schools of bass do not move to breaklines 10 feet deep or shallower, but that is another discussion.

Fran, I heard Mr. Perry say he was making the watercolor change in 96 or 97. We were sitting around a campfire one night when he made the statement. However, I never saw it in print. A long time Spoonplugger told me that it was published in Fishing Facts magazine before it folded, but I cannot confirm it.

This is it for me on this topic. I’m out.

Good fishing

Man I need to go to Florida!!!
Thanks for the info guys.

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