The Spoonpluggers Forum

Well......
I got the last Active Target from Cabelas today, along with a new Lowrance Elete FS 9 to go with it. So we will see how it all works.
Last one in the entire Phoenix area!

Jerry will probably be the last to have to worry, but one day he'll be cruising along, trolling that deep open water and there will be a Livescoper right in his way - lol. Too many diehard musky anglers, and those fish are too large - and likely too easy to find with forward facing sonar. They can't hide. They'll be a few who end up out there looking, and then dropping a jigging bait or live bait right in front of their face until they bite.

With all the Spoonpluggers now getting this technology, I hope to see some reports and videos, along with some thoughts and commentary after you get some time with the units. You'll catch a bunch of fish once you're comfortable with it, and learn a lot about where and why they locate where they do, how they react to presentations, etc.. The art of angling is dead - but I'm going to stay on the sidelines for a while as a matter of principal.

Brian,
Outstanding article. Your insightful outlook leads me to believe you have some kind of Live Scope for the future of fishing. Thanks for all your input and guidance.
Dennis

Brian, You said the art of angling is dead. I see the art of angling in years of becoming a good troller. The true art is going through the process of learning, you learn about structure, breaks and breaklines, weather and water, movements of the fish, the importance of finding the contact points, seasonal movements and more. To me this is the true art. And here is my final thoughts. For me, when something new comes along like the drop shot, pitching a jig into the weeds in post spawn (Greg calls it dunkin), any type lure like the swimbait, chatterbait or any lure or so called technique comes along, if there is a reason something might come along that might be better than trolling, it is easy to put it into use. You have the ability to understand the where, what, when, why and how in it's use. It will be very important to have the ability to separate the livescope and other front viewing devices, for what they can show us and what we might be able to learn, but not loose sight of the art that got us to where we are in our fishing. The bottom line is the catches at the end of a fishing season. You must consider that fish are dormant most of the day. Out of a 24 hour period, once or twice a day, the fish may become active. In order to catch them, it is important to be right on the spot in that 15 to 30 minutes if and when this occurs. Yes we may be able to get a couple by knowing where they are and stick a bait right in front of their face at 0 speed and they may suck it in but in order to catch several in a row, your timing will mean everything. I have spots on my lake where I can get 20 fish in a row if they are active but if they are not, I may not get a bite or just a couple and they may be small. On the other hand, if your timing is right, you get a bunch. Just because we may see 20 bass sitting right where they are supposed to be, we will still have to wait for them to get active. Seeing the fish and not getting them to bite could be the frustrating part but as spoonpluggers, we understand that the activity period is short and you had better be there when it happens. Frank Hamill said that in Florida , you do not get many stragglers. You do not make a catch until the fish move and you better take advantage of it when it happens because when it's over, you have 6 hours without a fish. For me, it has always been about the learning no matter what I am trying to do to catch the fish and I am looking forward to getting a live picture of what is down there in a different perspective for the first time. Being able to see if the fish are there and watching how they react to my depths and speeds will be most interesting. Hopefully it will be a learning experience and not a crutch. I see it maybe being both, eventually. John PS....... Last summer, the bass were not doing much throughout the day so I suspected they were moving at night. I got out there at daylight, spot locked on a good spot and smoked them real good. Next day I did the same and got nothing. Just when you think you know what's going on, you fall out of the tree again and have to climb back up. This is why I try to get on the lake early and stay till they move. It's important to be there when it happens.

John - always enjoy the "back and forth" discussions with you.

Ironically, I'd argue Buck didn't intend Spoonplugging to be an art. He designed the Spoonplug and other spoonplugging equipment, in part, to be a way to transfer knowledge and procedures to anyone who would listen and follow the guidelines, and Buck touches on this in the Green book (definition #9 of what spoonplugging is). Anyone with the ability to follow his instructions and put the time and effort into on-the-water learning can come out with the same understanding and results as you and I. There is no "art" in that, and the modern technology has eliminated whatever "art" there was in regards to everything else (anchoring, interpretation, depth, speed, etc.). Just how I see it.

I've seen and used forward sonar in action on the water now, and can envision a disciplined Spoonplugger being able to successfully use it without completely corrupting himself - lol - which is why I look forward to all the comments, results and feedback from all the Spoonpluggers who have now gone out and bought the units. Hopefully all that will be soon with the ice now off the water in most places, or at least pretty close. For me, the learning would be great, but the fun would be lost, which is why I am holding off for now...and I hope the price eventually comes down a lot more

Brian, I had a nice note back to you but elected not to write it. I just asked the wife if she thought spoonplugging was an art and she said yes. Because so few have really gotten good at it. That comes from a woman who had been there and done it. It's ok to disagree. John

" forward sonar" Please can some one explain how this technology would help with contour trolling and or pattern trolling, At warm weather trolling speeds I'm confused.


Hal

Hal, to my knowledge it isn't used at all while trolling - or at least I’ve not heard of it. It is used from a casting position off the trolling motor or an accessory rod. It allows you to scan up ahead of you and see fish and cover in real time. You can see your bait working and the fish swimming around while watching the screen.

Hal,
My gut feeling is that it will not help at all in our Contour Trolling. I could be wrong.
I do believe that it will really shine when getting into a casting situation.
This is why I have it on the Bow of the boat. If i can pinpoint a school of fish quicker and easier, then it will have paid for itself IMHO.

One example i can think of is how many times has a guy caught a fish on the troll, thrown a marker, return the pass and caught another fish, throw a marker, then beat the area between the markers and not find that school? It has happened to me and I know to others as well. This "Tool" and this is exactly what it is, just another tool or and "Aid" , could be used to help find that exact spot.

Out here on these deep clear suckers, I do far more casting for much of the year. I can see an advantage by using this technology to help locate the small breaks and breaks on a breakline in these rocky environments.

I also do alot of Vertical Jigging, due to the depths of the breaklines. I can see where this unit might be a huge aid here.

The problem is that many might not use this "tool" as the Aid it really is. If a guy just runs around the lake looking for fish, he is going to be sorry.
Now, if a guy will use it to look over his contact point, or to check out exactly what is down there on that structure, then it should make a difference. Key word is should.

I now have my unit about 90% installed. It will NOT be mounted on my trolling motor! I can see a disaster coming while trying to "look" at that school of fish, and you have to constantly keep turning that motor, to stay in position, due to the wind, all the while losing your forward picture. Forget trying to use Spot Lock for the same reason. Im using a separate pole that I found on Youtube that should be awesome. We will see.
Im going to do a video of how I installed mine, to maybe help some on here.

My cost was higher due to the fact that I had to purchase a new Lowrance Depth finder as my older Gen2 Touch unit is not compatible with Active Target. Ive got a little over $2900 in mine after install, tax, etc. Ive got the money, so I dont care the cost. After all, I just spent $25,000 for a new boat, what is $3000 more?
Right now they are hard to find available. Most dealers are "out of stock" online. I was very fortunate to get the only one left in Phoenix. Cabelas had 3 Lowrance units of different models, and only the one Active Target transducer. Some dude messed up bad as it had been spoken for , but he had not picked it up in the 3 day period Cableas requires when holding an item. So the sales guy sold it to me. Garmin is probably cheaper, but after watching videos of the two units side by side, I chose the Lowrance much clearer picture, as well as it could "see" fish farther away.
Crappie guys are scarfing these things up faster than the bass guys.

When kept in perspective of it just being an Aid, then I believe it will become a very good tool.
If not....then ill get rid of it. I;; take that chance.

Steve looking at the Lowrance units, do you need the module ,and the transducer or can u just get by with the transducer, if so what is the module for?

Champ,
The Module is a must. it comes in the kit with the Transducer. It has to have a power supply and will or 12 volt or 24 volt.
The Transducer cable plugs into it, and there must be an Ethernet cable from your Depth Finder to the Module. It is all in the kit.
I paid $1499 for the Kit and $1199 for the Elete FS 9.
If you have an HDS Live, HDS Carbon, or the new Elete, it is compatible with these units.
Steve

Team9nine wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:13 am Hal, to my knowledge it isn't used at all while trolling - or at least I’ve not heard of it. It is used from a casting position off the trolling motor

Steve Craig wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:20 am Hal,
My gut feeling is that it will not help at all in our Contour Trolling. I could be wrong.
I do believe that it will really shine when getting into a casting situation.
This is why I have it on the Bow of the boat. If i can pinpoint a school of fish quicker and easier, then it will have paid for itself IMHO.

One example i can think of is how many times has a guy caught a fish on the troll, thrown a marker, return the pass and caught another fish, throw a marker, then beat the area between the markers and not find that school? It has happened to me and I know to others as well. This "Tool" and this is exactly what it is, just another tool or and "Aid" , could be used to help find that exact spot.

Out here on these deep clear suckers, I do far more casting for much of the year. I can see an advantage by using this technology to help locate the small breaks and breaks on a breakline in these rocky environments.

I also do alot of Vertical Jigging, due to the depths of the breaklines. I can see where this unit might be a huge aid here.

The problem is that many might not use this "tool" as the Aid it really is. If a guy just runs around the lake looking for fish, he is going to be sorry.
Now, if a guy will use it to look over his contact point, or to check out exactly what is down there on that structure, then it should make a difference. Key word is should.

I now have my unit about 90% installed. It will NOT be mounted on my trolling motor! I can see a disaster coming while trying to "look" at that school of fish, and you have to constantly keep turning that motor, to stay in position, due to the wind, all the while losing your forward picture. Forget trying to use Spot Lock for the same reason. Im using a separate pole that I found on Youtube that should be awesome. We will see.
Im going to do a video of how I installed mine, to maybe help some on here.

My cost was higher due to the fact that I had to purchase a new Lowrance Depth finder as my older Gen2 Touch unit is not compatible with Active Target. Ive got a little over $2900 in mine after install, tax, etc. Ive got the money, so I dont care the cost. After all, I just spent $25,000 for a new boat, what is $3000 more?
Right now they are hard to find available. Most dealers are "out of stock" online. I was very fortunate to get the only one left in Phoenix. Cabelas had 3 Lowrance units of different models, and only the one Active Target transducer. Some dude messed up bad as it had been spoken for , but he had not picked it up in the 3 day period Cableas requires when holding an item. So the sales guy sold it to me. Garmin is probably cheaper, but after watching videos of the two units side by side, I chose the Lowrance much clearer picture, as well as it could "see" fish farther away.
Crappie guys are scarfing these things up faster than the bass guys.

When kept in perspective of it just being an Aid, then I believe it will become a very good tool.
If not....then ill get rid of it. I;; take that chance.

or an accessory rod. It allows you to scan up ahead of you and see fish and cover in real time. You can see your bait working and the fish swimming around while watching the screen.

Thanks Brian and Steve for the clarity on this subject! Keep us abreast of how that equipment works for you, Steve
Hal

I am kinda late to this discussion. Woe is Spoonplugging, woe are the big schools...I am not so sure.

Yes, there will be more fish caught. Bigger fish caught too. No question. But if we look at our own materials - Equipment is only one volume in the 9 volume Home Study Kit. And it wasn’t even the thickest one. The Professional Fisherman have lots of knowledge. Including experience and quite a few have read Mr Perry.

Someone we’ve all read said that no amount of electronics will compensate for a lack of knowledge.
Now for all of you that don’t know me and seen my boat - I had the Mack Daddie top of the line Lowrance. The only thing I didn’t have was radar (I had Sirius so why buy a dome...). And I version hopped from HDS 1 thru 3 Touch. I also DRAGGED kicking and screaming into the 21st century certain people who dismissed electronics. And they were AMAZED by what they saw.

And now with my new boat I am going MACK daddy Garmin - including LiveScope. I have turned my back on Lowrance. They are no longer the leader and quite frankly no longer the company I want to associate with. That being said the electronics didn’t increase my catches.

This is a longer conversation and I have to leave, so end of Part 1...

Just think if you were on a week long trip, and a battery died or something happened and you lost the electronics. I think a lot of people would have the deer in the headlights look on their face. Unless they had spoonplugging knowledge they could be DOA. Bill.

Mike that is a huge observation. Another issue might be, where would you point your LiveScope to begin with to SEE these fish? It’s one thing to use electronics on a lake you are familiar with, it’s completely different to take them to a body of water you aren’t familiar with.

Part 2...
As I was saying before, my boat is really decked out but there are still things that electronics still struggle with. Now I will hesitate to make a blanket statement that ALL electronics do not...but in my experience there are areas that electronics just don’t show accurately. These inaccuracies show up as blind spots where fish aren’t shown. Flashers had Huge holes. You could drop an anchor down on a rope and the anchor would disappear more than a foot off the bottom. Fish on a sloped bottom and you can literally not see a million fish because of blind spots.

If you fish soft bottom lakes the power of the wave from the transducer can go more than a foot into the bottom before there is enough power returned to the transducer.

Please note that ALL flasher units do this. You can compensate for these issues with narrow cones or being able to adjust the power of the pulse to the bottom but all flashers do this. I think the BEST flasher you can get is a Vexilar. Best one I used was an FL-18. I don’t believe later models allowed for power adjustment. Vexilar can literally see particles in the water so small that a glass of water and a glass of the particles weigh the same. But it still has holes. HDS and the StructureScan used different technologies to create detailed pictures. It still has some of the same issues as the flasher but generally the holes are much smaller.

SideScan is great but if you don’t know what you are looking at it’s pointless. I have scanned sunken barges and not seen them at the time, then only to see them plain as day when I played the capture files on a laptop. The HUGE schools I missed were amazing.

I have not used the CHIRP based products so I can’t say much but I suspect there are holes and issues just like everything else. I do believe these new tools will greatly reduce the time to get to productive structures but only following guidelines like we have. A person who loads the boat with electronics and just wanders around has very little chance.

I don’t believe the need for Spoonplugging will ever disappear. People will just get more frustrated with their fishing and search for the next gimmick. Spoonplugging will never be popular like a fancy technique.

Now I see Spoonplugging’s biggest problem is ourselves. We live in a digital multimedia world and we hand them books and pamphlets. Information is hitting kids Super Sonic fast and we give articles. It just doesn’t work.

Two Spoonplugger’s got their business together and created the Lindner Fishing Empire. Yes, there were Lindy rigs but they used color video of structure on TV back In the 80’s and beyond. They were teaching Spoonplugging without people knowing it. And people were and are Hungry for Spoonplugging. They just don’t know it.