The Spoonpluggers Forum

The Fisherman wrote:Small Flatlander. Total water area is less than 800 acres.

I mapped that Shamrock Lake back in 1965 and its amazing to see that your map is almost identical to mine.
Do they still let you fish in it...back then they had a 10hp limit on the engines.
It had some of the biggest bluegill you ever saw in it. I'd like to hit that place again.

Mr. Bush

Thanks for the post. Starting to think that I pissed some people off more than usual. As you know I grew up fishing West Point and it hasn't changed. If your fishing Yellow Jacket or Wilson creek and get some dark stained water or even muddy game on for up against the bank. WATER COLOR!!!!! I could be wrong here but it has always seemed that while the fish will move shallower during those conditions presentation can be an issues. Always kinda figured that it was because of degraded visibility due to sediment, and once again a bottom bouncing lure can kill 'em. I am by no means comparing my experience or knowledge to you but something I have learned, thanks to the Army. You cant always get the better water color. This shock was the biggest for me when I got to Alaska. I couldn't find something with good water color for quite a while. Now after a season, I finally learned which lakes would produce good or better water color and when. It is easy to see how you and my old man got a long. Same mentality! I guess I got stuck with a bone to pick with fish. If there is water spoonplugging will catch the fish, so a challenge is great fun.

I do have a question though. Most of my time on West Point has been from Wilson Creek up to buoy marker 111 up past Ringers. Have you ever done any fishing in the winter south of Wilson to the damn area? I have plenty of my structure maps from the Yellow Jacket arm and Chattahoochee arms but very little south of Wilson.

Thanks again for your comments on the forum Mr. Bush

Joshua Douglas Travis

Sorry Mr. Bush, Just saw the post that you had about shamrock lake. They allow you to fish both the top and the bottom lake, the top being Blalock i think and the bottom Shamrock. It is electric only now. AND ABSOLUTLY AMAZING ON BLUEGILL AND CRAPPIE. Me and Dad hit a really nice movement one day on and nailed about 45 crappie in less than maybe 10-15 minutes. Most being better than two hands. The old creek channel is still well defined and runs the middle of the lake to the damn. If you mapped it then I imagine there is no need to say much, exept small world! Maybe when I get back home we can get you my dad and me out there and get hold of some of those bluegill and crappie, then nice dinner. Have a good one and give me a line if you get out there on the water.

Joshua Douglas Travis

Mr. Bush,

I thought a little bit about what you had written and I responded to about the largemouth being VERY shallow, under muddy water conditions in the winter months. I didn't really have a lot of time to write before but some now so thought why not? Before the army I had left GA only a small handful of times and had done very little fishing outside of West Point, Jackson, Lanier, and Allatoona. Thanks to the Army I have had ample oppertunity to fish waters I never dreamed possible. I have now been able to ice fish, and won't do it again. But the point behind saying that is while everything I've been lucky enough to fish has been vastly different, all success can be measured in depth and speed. In addition I can say that I really feel for guys who simply "caint" find good water color. Well when that happens you have no choice but to go deep and that's where as Mr. Perry said the boys are separated from the men. Several years ago I thought that deep was 50'. Thanks to Alaska I have learned what deep really is. Mr. Lake trout taught me that he doesn't care what I think, bad weather and me and my wire were heading way down! That was one heck of a learning curve as Mr. Craig knows very well! Well I hate muddy water in the spring, always kicked my butt. But in the winter seemed to always be good. As far as you never noticing much with "cold fronts" in the winter I got to thinking if anyone would disagree or wander how we have to different statements on the same subject with similar variables. No one said anything but maybe they thought it.

WATER COLOR. Period.

The Fact that Mr. Douglas Bush is talking about little affect of the cold front on the fish in this particular lake...my lake... sir...is because the pool level is drawn down considerably. The fish have only remained, say in the Yellow Jacket creek arm because there is sufficient water depth remaining for starters. So we know that there are fish there, where to catch them?

Mr. Bush is not saying, I don't think, that "bank chunking" is productive everywhere. Now this is only my opinion of the situation, and I have fished the EXACT same one for 15 winters in the SAME spots. What was in between the lines and in all caps was Water Color. The water color is muddy, red Georgia clay, muddy. The light penetration is such that the cold front affects may be reduced, eliminated, or at a minimum, mitigated. So with the water condition being Low Pool, Muddy(Low Light) where does that leave our approach. Seasonal, and shallow for largemouth.

The structures that the fish will be using in this particular flatlander, West Point lake at winter pool will be much more nearer to the surface. They are still winter structures. We (I) would fish the same structures if the water had never been drawn down. But since it has been, it makes our presentation much easier. In a flatlander we all know that there will be a lot, and I mean A LOT of good looking structures that are not productive. Also the structures that will be most productive are those existing at creek channel/ main river intersections. so if the top of the river channel breakline is at 32' feet, which in this lake a lot of it is, and the top after draw down is at 13 then heck we got it made. This means the fish are pretty much in a barrel! Now these winter structures that are formed at the intersections, happen to come all the way to the water edge now. they are still the same structures and thank God we only have to work down to 13' to nail the contact point.

Lastly on this, the comment of straggler trolling was made. This may seem odd to some from the north. Others may have never been able to do so due to ice on. Yet what Mr. Bush said is no different then what I had said, he just talked about presentation where I spoke of movements and location. He(Mr. Bush) and all of us know that the fish will be scattered. With that being the case we know that trolling is the best option. To better the situation even more. We have the fish in a barrel and our spoonpluggs will be the gun to shoot them. You can literally troll from structure to structure and never leave potentially productive water. Heck your trolling threw their house. Just remember, stay on the bottom, if you don't and your in "muddy" water esp., then good luck bud, I'm not that good or lucky!

Joshua Douglas Travis

You can have all the depth and speed control in the world, but if you're doing it in "bad for fishing water color", or "bad for fishing weather" you may as well be at a dice game betting even money on 9's and 10's.
Bad gambling, bad risk taking, whatever a person decides to call it.
I personally HATE THAT DEEP WATER TROLLING....(past 30 feet) and I will not participate in it. It is boring, and a pain in the butt for me. I had rather pull out an untra-light, find some boat docks and chunk for crappies or bluegill with bugs or red wigglers.
Now...lets look at this......STRUCTURE SITUATIONS. And there are only a few..see the booklet put out by Bucks Baits on it. Only about 7, I think. This does away with fooling around on "good looking unproductive structure".
In a flatlander, the rip rap at the bridges (Structure Situation) is the strongest percentage bet, in my opinion, when the water muddies up. Back and forth...back and forth...trolling and casting.
In the shallow creek arms...just put on a 250 with wire, use short line length and drag it all over the place. Nice and slow....sit back in the seat, soak up the sun, eat, drink, and enjoy the day. The fish will find you. Or cast to those clear spots between the bank and the muddy water.....EVERYWHERE.
Now that's my idea of a good fishing day.

Sorry to dissagree with you Sir Douglas on fishing past 30 feet. " You may have to go to the fish because they may not come to you". Wire line and going to the fish will open up a new world not known by many. I say not known by many because not many have went there. It is more difficult and does take much more time to figure out. It is worth it when it is called for just because of the fact that not many have went there. These fish are untouched in many situations. All of the 50+ inch musky caught in the Detroit river were taken from places that had not likely ever seen a lure. The guidelines that you stick by are those that Mr. Perry preached that most can do and he did it to sell lures. He did give us the guidelines to fish deep structure but did not take it much further than that because it is much more difficult. Water color is the most important observation that a fisherman can make and for most all of the time, the decisions that you make are correct. I will tell you that those times that you decide not to make that move to the deeper features or just plain to the deepest water with not a feature near it is when you are missing the biggest and baddest fish that will turn a head. The worse part about avoiding going deep is that you never really get your mind completely opened for some more learning. Why would you not want to know all that is out there? The easy route does not always pay the biggest dividends. John

Mr. Bales, dear sir.
You say.."why would you not want to know all that's out there"?
Because I do not CARE about everything thats out there, I never did care about everything that was out there and I never will.
All I ever wanted to have was a method, process, or procedure that gave me the best percentages at catching fish to satisfy my own greedy self and my offspring. As history turned out, I was lucky to be "mister big shot" for years and years when weather and water conditions were pretty much ideal. I also chose lakes where I had the best percentages going for me.
To me, the easiest route is the one I choose to use. Basic guidelines in the right water color will eventually produce fish, without a lot of pain. If that route doesn't produce fish, I will go somewhere else or go home.
By the way, I read those comments about "saving $300 worth of lures with plug knocker devices" on trotlines and hangs at the Kentucky Lake deal. How the dickens is that fun??? I do not like pain or annoyances...and thats all it is when messing around down there in that terrible bottom condition.
Wasting precious days yanking and pulling on hungup lures is not my idea of fun. And just how many fish did all that torment produce? Looked pretty crummy to me. I would have been happier riding around looking for drunken straggler fish or looking for bluegill with red wigglers or looking at pretty girls. (especially the pretty girls part)
I said that many times to Buck. "Coach, I simply do not CARE about "growing" if it means I have to spend time with plugknockers, getting trotlines loose from the propeller, having cold water splash into the boat, or being uncomfortable. Your stuff works and thats all I care about" He'd laugh and say..."well nobody can say you're not focused, more power to you, boy".
Regards, Me. <=====will trade all the 7 pound bass in the lake for the pretty girls. In a heartbeat.

WOW...sorry for getting this going. Mr. Bush, first off thank you for your continued participation in this discussion. Mr. Bales, you know my standpoint on all of this.

Deep water is the home of the fish. Like I said before, I had never fished, never needed to fish, nor had a reason to fish below 50+ of water. This was due to the lake types, and regions that I was fishing. These areas are the same that Mr. Bush is making statements about. These lake types are prominent and many do NOT catch big adult largemouth consistently in them. I did have the same opinions before moving around with one exception. I was NEVER allowed to go everywhere, Mr. Bush you know my teacher very well(my Dad). Furthermore, I have fished some expanses of water that were so big that following a everywhere troll method would have landed me in Cuba! Now you were I only imagine speaking of low water levels at West Point Lake, this does leave you able to troll from "spot to spot" and still be in potentially productive water. This is due solely to the fact that the water is so low, you are trolling the small area that is their home. Note to all the situation in which he was referring to these presentations. I do love to troll four rods rigged with spoonpluggs and three-way rigs in the spring, and just nail the crap out of white bass, hybrid stripped bass, and any other species that happens to see it. Even then you have to make sure that your not wandering around lost, or off structure.

Now as to the Structure Situation Book that Bucks Baits offers, this is going to make some very mad. I was really pissed when I got it, both at myself and the fact that it is what it is. I mean common guys, if your a damn SPOONPLUGGER and you need a pamplet to show you a basic structure situation, then your not a Spoonplugger of any level. One further comment about that, its not a bad thing to have to hand out to people your trying to teach. Good reference. But Sorry Mr. Bush, that thing doesn't show you the GIANT flat running from the creed channel intersection of Highland Marina and the hooch all the way up to that point where the pier is. The point has a great breakline, and a few nice fingers but is very unproductive. The roadbed however that sticks way out into the river channel is very productive. I know that sounds very angry on my part but it is not intended to be that way. Also the intersection itself can hold very very large strippers all year long. But it is a wire line and 200 situation.

Rip rap on a flatlander. NO. Not the best bet. From the mouth of Mr. Perry. CREEK AND RIVER CHANNEL INTERSECTIONS. That is hinted at as the best spot in the book, but on the phone, " if your gonna be consistant on a flatlander and put it in your hip pocket then the structure must relate to an intersection" That is the guideline.

Mr. Bales,

Hope that all is well with you and yours. On your comments I have a few things. Past 30'. There is I believe one or two spots where Mr. Perry gave diagrams and commentary on when and why to go that deep. Most people don't have to. A lot of people don't care to, or have the time. Some are real lucky and have perfect weather all the time...joke. But I do have to agree with what you said. At most of mine and your phone calls we find ourselves discussing whats happening to the drive in people? I don't have an answer for that but I do have this. Some people are done learning by choice. They are happy. Me and you and a few others are NOT DONE. Most likely we will never be done. I know I will NEVER STOP LEARNING. I love this stuff, and its never the easy days that I remember its the ones with wire line, frozen fingers and my old man pissed wanting to get off the water but teaching me everything he knows! thats spoonplugging

Joshua Douglas Travis

Josh said.....
"Rip rap on a flatlander. NO. Not the best bet. From the mouth of Mr. Perry. CREEK AND RIVER CHANNEL INTERSECTIONS. That is hinted at as the best spot in the book, but on the phone, " if your gonna be consistant on a flatlander and put it in your hip pocket then the structure must relate to an intersection" That is the guideline."

You didn't read close enough. I am talking about in MUDDY water conditions. Under normal summer conditions I'd go with the creek intersections.
The following bet is hereby posted: ANYBODY put up $300 in a gambling battle on a flatlander down here in MUDDY water conditions. (we can bet more but I have to get in touch with backers).
You get to choose your "creek intersection" and I get to stay on the riprap at a bridge. Neither of us is allowed to go anywhere else and after a 9 hour session we weigh the fish. I will rob you!
Deal the cards....

Mr. Bush,
With all due respect, I must disagree with you as well.
I spent many years trolling the first 3-4 sizes of spoonplugs. I have to say it cost me many extra fish that I should have caught.
But what was worse, is it cost me knowledge.........
knowledge that certainly would have helped me down the road and especially after moving to AZ and having to go deeper to catch even smaller fish.
I HAD to learn how to fish deep.
Had I gained that experience sooner in my career, I could have saved many fishless days out here on these Highland and Canyon Reservoirs.
On many of these lakes, one doesnt even need to use the first 3 sizes to start with!
Many times, I can eliminate even the 200 series!
I know we are talking about shallow flatlanders, and flood plain reservoirs here, but had I learned to go deeper(on structure) from the beginning, on my Indiana lakes, I would have become a better spoonplugger sooner.
Not working the structures right on down to as deep as you can go is a mistake IMHO.
In Kentucky, it meant trolling the base breakline at 52 to 60 feet. I learned alot about the bottom of that channel in both Kentucky and Barkley to say the least.
This I was able to do because a few fellow Spoonpluggers felt sorry for me out here, and helped me to learn just that. One of them lives in your State by the name of Jim Vaughn.
This man knows how to catch fish downstairs, and rest assured, it is NOT boring! Fishing 60.70. 80 or a 100 feet deep is actually quite fun once you understand what you have to look for and learn the correct tools to use and how to use them properly.
But.........it is WORK!
And I guess some just dont want to work that hard.
Myself..........I have a strong desire for more and more knowledge, so I keep at it, striving to get better at it, and learn more in the process.

But, I also remember Mr. Perry saying that any one of us can become as good as WE want to be in our fishing. And that is the beauty of Spoonplugging.

Mister Craig, sir
First, what are you disagreeing about?
Your entire post is absolutely accurate.
I was and am discussing muddy water conditons. You dont have any in Arizona??...too bad for you.
If I lived in that place I guess I would have to give up fishing.
Buck was right (as usual)..."we can become just as good a fisherman as we desire to be." I have accomplished that and am very content with it. Also I am very smug and self satisfied about it, too. The confidence that comes from KNOWING I have the best hand is something most fishermen never experience. (thanks to Buck Perry)
I have little desire for more and more knowledge..I have enough to accomplish catching fish wherever I choose to fish. Your fish is bigger than my fish?....well, whoop-te-do, isnt that just grand. So what?...I can play the harmonica better than your bigger fish. To top that off, my smaller fish can dance better than your bigger fish and my fish wears nicer clothes while your bigger fish has smelly feets
See how crazy this can get? And I am one of the craziest there is...
I do not have to fish anywhere..its a choice with me, not some need that simply MUST be fulfilled. And no water color, weather, pamphlet, book, wire line, or 60 inch fish is going to determine that for me.
I do not like work.
Next?

Sorry to go even longer here but one other thing that was said kinda bothered me, actually it really aggravates me. All of us have a different opinion of what a fun/good day of fishing is and I'm happy with every trip I get to take.

But Mr. Bush I mean this with absolutely no disrespect.

(You can have all the depth and speed control in the world, but if you're doing it in "bad for fishing water color", or "bad for fishing weather" you may as well be at a dice game betting even money on 9's and 10's.)

I do understand the exact situations that you are discussing and a couple of my previous posts were simply to make sure that guys that sadly have never fished our lake understand the circumstances that you are making these comments about.

But the comment about depth and speed control is flat wrong and Mr. Perry would I believe disagree with you. I of course cannot ask him but the basic guidelines even lay out the fact that the ONLY thing we have are controls. Depth is not only a vertical assessment of the distance between the bottom and surface of a body of water. It is everything. Where/When all of that. So to say that I'm rolling the dice with bad chances by only and I mean ONLY relieing on depth and speed,is very very wrong. In my opinion and Buck Perry's of course:) But as we know yet water color will be the most important aspect or variable that affects our fishing. This means in even more simple terms that it makes depth and speed EVEN MORE IMPORTANT.

Now about that bet...I'll take tripple nipple on the yellow jacket creek arm under fall conditions, with falling water level and a turnover occurring. Since its a bet....Doug...now we aren't counting non-adult largemouth are we. Only 5lbs and up.

Have a good one boss, and by the way I emailed Dad a few of these posts and he was wandering how in the heck you even find the energy to get on here and talk! then again he says that and loves reading the posts.

Joshua Douglas Travis

Mr. Bush,

I happen to be on the telephone with a man. He is more than happy to obliged you on the bet. He needs a babysitter is. His initials are D.T., he also was wandering when you were gonna give him a call!

Joshua Douglas Travis

Water color is the best control that exists except for the control I have over where the action will take place. That means I CONTROL where I fish. Depth and speed control are the final answers IF you're forced to fish in a certain place. Buck was FORCED to fish in certain places when he was on the road to get interest in the lures. Being hardheaded to a certain degree, he stuck with that for years, then he wised up and started making better decisions and said "to hell with all of you". And THAT is when he started getting somewhere in that racket.
I, on the other hand, am not forced into doing anything unless I like the conditions...therefore I choose muddy water
Nowwwww then, since you want to lose your money....do not try and change the conditions I have set up.
I said MUDDY water....and to clarify even further, I mean in the dead of January. As far as fish go and their "size" and all that environmentalist BS....just bring in your pile of fish and I will bring in mine. (catfish or hybrids not allowed).
Now I will even sweeten the pot for you. Instead of you getting only one creek intersection in this battle, if you will lay 9-5 on the money I will even spot you 2 MORE intersections while I stay on my lonely little riprap at the bridge...and you KNOW I am talking about 109 at WestPoint.
Or.....we can tangle at Jackson. You get your "creek intersection" and I get the whole lake. You do NOT get to declare that 'under the power lines' is a creek intersection because as you very well know, it is not. At Jackson, I will lay the odds....6-5 on me to win.
Okay young man....bet it up and find me when you get back home.
And before you even start===> NO, your dad doesnt get to be in the boat with you for any "coaching". He is pretty slick himself.

Also..........puh-leeeeeeeeeze disrespect me.
I love to be hated..I thrive on it.
..........byeeeeeeeeeee