Bryan-AZ wrote:Interesting thread. I've been out on the lake all weekend fishing...
Well, it is pretty obvious that I'm on a different path than most of the people on here. I'm having a ton of fun with incorporating the new electronics into my fishing...learning a LOT about different lakes. I do like sharing what I'm learning, but this doesn't seem to be the right place. Thanks all.
If you think you're learning anything by placing one single ounce of faith in your gadget that shows baitfish, thermoclines, bubblyclines, analclines, erectileclines, or anything else other than the BOTTOM....you are sadly mistaken.
You'll find out sooner or later...probably sooner. They ALL DO!
Those hideous looking, clanking, walking, old spoonplugs are always the solution. As the old coach used to say..."put that in your pipe and smoke it, boy"
Douglas <===shakes head at the lameness and slowly walks away
Hello Douglas, I am glad there is a second opinion from a real spoonplugger that thinks like I do. The old spoonplug will give you all of the answers that you are looking for. The real key is to get out there and actually use them. Part of the problem with the new gadgets is that a fisherman will get them before becoming a decent troller and put too much faith in the gadget. Of all of the depth meters out there and I include them all from the old green box to the newest in down scans were supposed to make keeping a lure in position easier!!!!!!!!!!!! What some seem to forget is that our most important tools are those of markers and shoreline sightings. Interpretation of a structure situation can be done with any type of depth meter. It is what the fisherman does after his interpretation of a structure situation that will determine the extent of the learning and if he will be able to catch a fish or not. Success comes in this order, interpretation of structure, the placement of markers or the use of shoreline sighting, and then the mechanical process of running the different sizes of lures. The new fancy equipment can be used during the running of the lures to aid in the learning process. The basics of trolling and casting is our real teacher and the rest is not as important. John
Kevin - Caught one of the fishing shows couple days back, think it was a BassWest or something like that. Guys were fishing what I thought they said was Diamond Valley near Hemet(?). They were catching mostly little stinkers until they fished the "ladders" on the dam. They look like steel stairsteps, good manmade structure on the riprap. That was were they seemed to catch the majority of their good bass. Clean, reachable structures with access to deep water nearby. Hope you're getting alot of fishing time in the new boat.
As you well know, John, the old coach said it a zillion times: "the true facts concerning successful fishing will never be popular or even DESIRED by the masses of fishermen".
When he used to say that stuff, I would think he'd gone off the deep end...but after nearly 50 years of my being able to almost catch fish at will while observing "wanna be's" and "is beens", it's obvious he was exactly right.
In the world of confident fishing there are no opinions that matter...only facts. And those facts come from Buck himself and they will never change.
The last part is what kills them......."it will never change".
Dave, (Koz) Thanks for the info on Diamond Valley Reservoir. I'm looking for a summer home for my boat and I was checking DVR out on Tuesday. I was stuck in traffic and happened to glance over to my right and the picture that I've attached was what I was looking at, but from a lower angle, obviously. (Internet Picture) All I could think of was California is earthquake territory and if the big one hits, I don't want to be parked in traffic right here.
Speaking of Highlands, I'm thinking about parking the boat at Lake Hemet for the summer. I believe it's a Highland, but shallower depths than DVR. DVR is only about 30 miles from Lake Hemet, so I can drive down the hill to it.
If anyone want's to take a look at Lake Hemet and give me some advice, it would be greatly appreciated. It's east of DVR/Hemet, CA. It's about 8 miles from Idyllwild-Pine Cove, CA. Good luck finding a map on it. I might have to make my own. Kevin
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Diamond Valley Reservoir Dam.jpg (106.81 KiB) Viewed 3458 times
I doubt too many people have the electronics I have. I'm just lucky and bought a piece or two at a time. And I can say with all my heart that Douglas and John are correct. Last year I made myself do the straight line passes. I learned so much that just using electronics would never have told me.
Now most of you newer guys probably never read any of the old posts Doug wrote about implementing newer technologies. And he's right too but the issue becomes the context or importance the new technology is used.
Bink has razed me about the electronics I've bought. But he's right. You don't have to spend that much money or use anything other than a flasher. Hell you don't even need electronics. Just use Spoonplugs, markers, and straight line passes. All the maps Terry drew for the GreenBook were made that way. If you use your electronics incorrectly you won't learn anything.
Now take those same electronics, with some pre-planning, markers and line lengths, and then follow the Guidelines Mr Perry wrote over 60 years ago - then the speed you get to fish is much faster. Let any one of those items get more important than the guidelines and you'll miss an opportunity.
Personal example...
Recently I had a trip of a lifetime at Lake St. Clair. The first area we went was an area about 5 miles from ramp and 2-4 miles from shore. Pre planning gave us area. GPS got us close. Markers and line lengths pinpointed the exact spot. Using the latest technology did NOT show one kfish of any kind. Heck the latest tech didn't show much of a drop in the break line. We realized the answer with lures bumping bottom. We caught 28 fish. These were the biggest fish caught. If we hadn't used the guidelines we'd never have gotten them.
The only people we saw out there over the weekend was people hitting 2 high spots on the bar or reef (honestly not sure what to call it). We saw no one fishing where the fish were and no one caught a fish there.
It it easy to say things and get lost in our new toys. I've done it. But eventually you'll fail and get frustrated. I believe there is a proper place for all the new stuff no matter what it is but only if we follow the guidelines.
The posted comments below (by Fran Myers)..(with a slight congruency correction by nosey me) should be read, read, read, read, and re-read until they are memorized and can be repeated out loud in public.
Now take those same electronics, with some pre-planning, markers and line lengths, and then follow the Guidelines Mr Perry wrote over 60 years ago - then the time spent getting to fish is much quicker. Let any one of those items get more important than the guidelines and you'll miss an opportunity.
Personal example...
Recently I had a trip of a lifetime at Lake St. Clair. The first area we went was an area about 5 miles from ramp and 2-4 miles from shore. Pre planning gave us area. GPS got us close. Markers and line lengths pinpointed the exact spot. Using the latest technology did NOT show one kfish of any kind. Heck the latest tech didn't show much of a drop in the break line. We realized the answer with lures bumping bottom. We caught 28 fish. These were the biggest fish caught. If we hadn't used the guidelines we'd never have gotten them.
Kevin McClure wrote:Dave, (Koz) Thanks for the info on Diamond Valley Reservoir. I'm looking for a summer home for my boat and I was checking DVR out on Tuesday. I was stuck in traffic and happened to glance over to my right and the picture that I've attached was what I was looking at, but from a lower angle, obviously. (Internet Picture) All I could think of was California is earthquake territory and if the big one hits, I don't want to be parked in traffic right here.
Speaking of Highlands, I'm thinking about parking the boat at Lake Hemet for the summer. I believe it's a Highland, but shallower depths than DVR. DVR is only about 30 miles from Lake Hemet, so I can drive down the hill to it.
If anyone want's to take a look at Lake Hemet and give me some advice, it would be greatly appreciated. It's east of DVR/Hemet, CA. It's about 8 miles from Idyllwild-Pine Cove, CA. Good luck finding a map on it. I might have to make my own. Kevin
I know absolutely ZERO about this lake or any other lake in your area.
The only thing I found out on google that was beneficial is the part about it being only 4.5 miles long and there is an earth dam on the north end. I really like the part about the "dirt"....probably mixed with rip-rap too.
If I had to fish this clear water creature, I'd find some way to get as far north to the headwaters as possible and then go to work with the lures looking for a STRUCTURE SITUATION. (which could be that earth dam).
Sounds like a wire line place to me.
I sure would not spend any time down near the main dam on all those "good looking" points and cuts. Probably too clear and too deep for me to mess around with. This is not earth shaking news....it's merely the same thing Buck always said about dealing with clear water. (the odds sure beat hell out of 'shooting docks' with finesse worms and spinning gear)
I hope that you will keep on posting on spoonpluggernet. I understand and I agree with you that game fish are never too far from their food source. I also understand that would be very difficult for most of us to find the bait fish location, but for someone that has a good knowledge of the body of water he is fishing should not be all that difficult, especially if the bait fish are on structure. Mr Perry guide lines are the most productive way of fishing, and by reading your post you are using his guide lines. You are also providing additional information which I agree with but if someone else or any body else does not agree with you, you should not be casted aside as if your knowledge means nothing. The greatest thing about human beeings is that we learn through trial and error and from each other.
I started fishing Lake Mille Lacs around 2005. Lake mille Lacs is known for huge muskie and lots of them. Muskie guides where catching 8 to 10 fish a day, including a very good friend of mine that lives Chippewa Flowage, but something changed. The muskie are still there, but are no longer on the usual structure that they where using, and this is been mentioned by a great muskie guide that actually I met severla times and lives on Mille Lacs.
If you go fishing on Mille Lacs you still get plenty of other game fish, walleys, smallmouth bass good size northern pike perch largemouth and plenty of panfish, but not the mukie
What changed, Mille lacs they do sample netting for the tullibe (Cisco) I seen some netting years back that there were just a few tullibe, but in the recent years the nets were full of tullibe, over 100 in one netting. The muskie are in open water near by the cisco their food source, the lake beeing 123000 acres good luck finding the cisco due to the feed on zooplankton which its where abouts it's all controlled by the wind and current. There are no longer muskie guides on Mille Lacs becuse they cannot locate them, they moved on to other lakes
I read an article just recently done by the guide that lives on Mille Lacs fishing in November for muskie and the reason to fish in November (his words) is because the muskie would be on structure due to the tullibe are on the rock bars spauning when the water reaches 38 to 40 degrees
There are other great educated young guys that I know, that talk about muskie beeing close to gizzard shad or cisco.
I will say this I do not care if someone thinks that I am not a good spoonplugger because I believe in the food chain theory or when I map I use my electronics, or I do not put things on paper. One thing I believe if there is no food for game or pan fish fish to eat on any good structure the fish will not be there, they do not go on structure because it looks good, they go there to eat, Crappies love minnows and you better believe the crappie know where the minnows are , the fisherman does not know where the minnows are but we may find the crappie if the minnows are on structure. Spoonplugging taught us how to find good structure. Just because I may have my own ideas does not mean I have no respect for Mr Perry, that is where you are wrong. Mr Perry is and allways will be the greatest fisherman that ever lived and I admire him and have great respect
If spoonplugging is going to survive we need to respect other people ideas and have respectful conversation with the individual
Gino
I hope that you will keep on posting on spoonpluggernet. I understand and I agree with you that game fish are never too far from their food source.
Gino, I couldn't help interpreting this forum spat in terms of religion. Some folks say there are many paths to god, but others vehemently quote the one who claimed there is only one narrow path "through him." Spoonplugging has boiled many issues that do exist (fish biology, lake limnology, predator relationships, etc.) into a comprehensive prescription that can be followed by normal weekend fishermen who have to make a normal living the rest of the time. A few pros have invented other comprehensive prescriptions for fishing, such as in the 1970s, Al Lindner's "F+L+P" theory. He factors in so many issues that the head spins just learning the initial prerequisities (example, 100s of pages about lake types.) And every variable discovered in turn triggers a hundred related variables (you have to learn) regarding presentation, season, fish personality, etc. All that stuff has scientific evidence, but is that what is needed to put fish in the boat? Mr. Perry thought "NO, just DO this, and start to catch fish." I don't think he ever claimed that the guidelines describe the biological or limnological truth about anything. So, it's only natural that teachers of spoonplugging on this forum are going to defend the doctrine, and chase away any claims that may be a distraction to others wanting to go the distance as prescribed.
Interesting info about Mille Lac muskies. Shouldn't a spoonplugger be able to crack the code there in terms of SP guidelines, not prey? Or would it be a big exception?
"Structure situations can be like an old-fashioned prostate exam--the deepest finger receives the initial movement!" Ben Marcos
Ben
Thank you for you reply
I cannot expres as elequent as you. I am not disputing the fact that if we do what Mr Perry taught us we will catch fish no doubt about it. When we have a situation like Mille Lacs and the forage comes in to play, than we have other things to consider, either we go and find another muskie lake as in my situation or we spent the time to see if we can figure out where the fish are. On Mille Lacs you can spend all the time you want on all the best structure situation and not get any good result. The fact is that Mille Lacs has had some real top notch muskie guides and they are all gone, except for the poonton boats trolling with 5 rods in 3 to 10 feet of water on the north end mud flats, bouncing baits off the sand, they are having some success and fish well over 50 inches . I am not suggesting that we go looking for the bait fish, I am only saying the forage that this fish are feeding on is affectting where this fish are regardless of structure situation. In the case of Bryan he has keeyd on the gizzard bass location and he has had success catching big bass. There is a guide from Illinoiis Chad Cain he will go find the shad when fishing for muskie on Kinkaid, than when he is guiding on another body of water he is looking for different type of situation, so is not allways looking for the shad the men is a tremendous muskie fisherman. Now will I go on Kinkaid and look for the shad, of course not, I would not know where to start, but certainly I would use spoonplugging guidelines and catch fish maybe not the muskie unless he got in the way.
Some of us do not fish as much as other spoonpluggers, so getting to know a body of water is much more difficult. TIME ON THE WTER makes a huge difference, eventually you will find out where the fish are based on the season we are fishing. Targeting a certain species like I do especially when I am looking for a fish that is around 50LB muskie that gets even more difficult on certain type lakes like Mille Lacs.
I am willing to go in the midle of the lake or around the mud flats looking for huge muskie, hoping to get that monster, but that is nothing that I would recomend for any one to do.
Another thing that really bothers me is I hear all the time how good spoonpluggers are and pretty much they are laughing at the rest of the fishermen like the rest are a bunch of fumbling idiots that do not know what they are doing. This is really wrong, we think too much of ourselfes. I belong to Muskie Inc. over 350 members and I can tell you there are some really outstang fisherman that they only like to cast and still catch lots of muskie.
Gino
"One thing I believe if there is no food for game or pan fish fish to eat on any good structure the fish will not be there, they do not go on structure because it looks good, they go there to eat," RONG!!!
The fish have no choice in the matter. They have no say-so in anything..they react and that's all they do.
Fish movement is not triggered by hunger, it is triggered by a light condition or frequency of light. (no no no no no, not the absence or presence of light, but a frequency.)
Buck proved it for years.
My God...how do some of you guys LIVE like this?
Lost as a goose, got the best teachings in the world at your fingertips and you listen....but don't hear.
With all do respect Mr. Bush I did not say that the fish will not move. I am just saying that the muskie in this particular are feeding in open water, nothing to do with fish movement
Please do not insult my inteligence.
I'm going to give my 2 cents on this discussion, then I'm locking this thread! (If you guys want to continue, start a new one!)
We all have strong opinions, and I can fault no one for believing what they do. STRUCTURE is our GUIDE to where the fish will be found, period. End of discussion!
If some of you have more confidence in seeing baitfish in the same structure area, that's ok as long as STRUCTURE is your guide. I believe confidence and mental aspects plays a big role in fishing. Having confidence will give you that extra mental awareness and I believe this will put your self conscience mind at work and you do the right things automatically without thinking about them. I think what some are saying, do not run around the lake in search of baitfish. Again, it's structure that is our guide!
When speaking about species other than bass, (Walleye, Muskie, Northerns, Stripers) these are migratory fish. Here one day, then off to another structure or area. In all cases, STRUCTURE is the key in finding the fish.
It is often easy to misinterpret what some of us are trying to say at times. Again, I find no one at fault. We have some very die hard Spoonpluggers (Structure Fisherman) on this forum as well as some newbies. We don't want to discourage people from asking questions, we want to encourage everyone to ask questions regardless of there skills.
With that being said, there are NOT many of us at all. We ALL need to get along and play nice! We may disagree at times, but we all have the same interest, learning, sharing and keeping Buck's teachings with us.
And another reminder, no personal attacks or name calling! You will receive a warning the first time, then if it happens again your out! We need to all play nice together!
Let's have a good summer on the water and keep the reports coming!!!
