Lake of the week Lake Ontario and St. Lawrence

[Consigliere]

Yup made my way over Jerry...thanks for the info on this forum!

Haven't been up to much fishing wise since I was talking with you....family time lately. Been reading away on the home study guide, up to Lake Types now.

However, when I do get some time to fish, I've got some gear on the way to help. My buddy and I have ordered a myriad of spoon plugs, including two JB I and JB II's. Also got several 250, 700 and 800s on the way. Some wire line and No-Bow as well. Picked up a nice stiff wire roller rod as well. So should be all set to hit the big Lake Ontario and St. Lawrence when time permits. Hopefully will be able to hang a trophy out there...so far all we have to show this year is stragglers and post spawn fish.

I also did pickup the Navionics map for the Great Lakes and the PC app so I've been studying up on the local areas trying to identify good spots. I've put in a photo here of a depth chart of the local area within about 15min boat ride of the local launch. The purple square is known spawning bay and the yellow areas I've highlighted as potential productive structure that have access to deepest waters in the area. The red is the 30-40ft break lines which I think are the trolling runs to make. However, considering this area is yellow-green to clear water, the main channel/river drop offs may be the breaklines to target? Any thoughts or help to offer?

[site admin]

Consigliere,

This will make a great "Lake of the week" discussion.
I assume the depths shown are in feet? Either way, assuming the top of the map is north, I would fish just south of the channel during the summer months. It appears to be steep and short structures north of the channel. South of the channel you have more gradual sloping structures. Depending on water color or if a weedline condition exits, I would start at the weed line and start working out from there. As you work out, concentrate on any deeper breaklines you find. Clip on the JB2 and work it. We had a club member (about 20 years ago) that went there a couple of times. I don't recall all the specifics, but I remember he had a great time and was one of his favorite trips ever...

[John Bales]

This place is mind boggling. Years ago I purchased a map of the St. Lawrence and studied it to pieces. Ended up going to the eastern basin of Lake Erie instead. I heard reports of cabbage weeds that grow out to 30 feet. If that is the case, your larger fish (outside of the spawn) will rarely make it even to the weedline. There are depths to over 200 feet in that river but there are sections where the max depth is 60-70 feet. You can make some passes starting at the weedline to make sure that they are not there but do not spend much time there before checking deeper. On your final passes, you will want your largest lures bumping the bottom in and around the deepest water in the area. This is after you have checked out all of the breaklines that exist. One important point I need to make. If you are not bumping the bottom, you will not catch the largest fish that are available. Bumping is critical in catching the largest musky in the system. Make sure you beef up your snaps, leaders ,ect because you will not be dealing with children. Have long nosed pliers and a big net and a set of cutters that will cut thick hooks. You will need all of it when the time comes. If you get to a point where you are catching lots of big fish, if you want to release them, the less you handle them, the better chance they have of swimming away. If you must get a pic, leave the fish in the net over the side of the boat, take the hooks out in the net, get the camera ready and do it quickly and put him back. When you study your map, look for the deeper holes. This is where the giants will spend most of their entire life. I cannot tell you how important this study will be before you get on the water. I also understand that some of these places in this body of water are so deep that you will not be able to reach those depths. Pick the deepest breaklines that you can interpret and stay on them or pick a section of the river where you can reach everything. If it were me, I would spend virtually all of my time in and around those deeper sections that you can reach. Thats just me. You can start out learning what is there first and then work deeper so you can learn it all. That's what you should do but end up also learning about the deepest water available. You will do just fine. The fish are there. John

[derdly]

What is the current speed? that WILL play a major factor in bumping the bottom. and how many lures you get hung up.

maybe someone has a better suggestion but, i would recommend running a wire set up to a swivel then a small piece (8-12 inches) of 50 lb test A. for strech B. for a give away point if you hung real bad. then continue from the 50 lb test to a swivel and another wire leader which will be attach to the lure of choice.

Anyone want to do a lake of the week on the charleston harbor?

dje

[jwt]

Consigliere,
You might want to get in touch with Pat Maio. He was a good Spoonplugger and took me out on his way home from the St. Lawrence when I was just starting out. He fished the St. Lawrence every year. He could fill you in current, using weighted balloons for markers because of the current, etc. Unfortunately arthritis made it too painful for Pat to spend hours in the boat, and he no longer fishes. He is no longer in the directory. but here is his address and phone number. If you do call him, please tell him Jim Taylor sends his best to him and Marge.

Pat Maio.
384 Elmer Brown Rd,
Northville, NY 12134
518-863-2969

[Consigliere]

Some insightful responses. Thanks a lot guys. I've got all sorts of great charts for this area....I'll volunteer any of them for Lake of the Weeks!

A couple answers to questions:

I assume the depths shown are in feet?

Yes

What is the current speed?

This particular section is actually the North mouth of the Lk. Ontario to St. Lawrence junction. Water is flowing to the east (right) but I don't think the current in this area is very signficant. If there were something on the 1MPH range, the relative velocities of the lures would either change positively or negatively if parallel with the current but this should not affect depth with a spoonplug? Or if the current is perpindicular to the lure path the current would create some bowing in the line and so longer lines would be needed to reach expected depths? Is that why we would ask this question?

Admin,

I would fish just south of the channel during the summer months. It appears to be steep and short structures north of the channel. South of the channel you have more gradual sloping structures. Depending on water color or if a weedline condition exits

The shallower sloping structure has various breaks in scattered weed beds, varying rock colour/clean spots but is otherwise generally quite flat until the islands and humps in the shallows. The weeds to the surface are at about 10ft depth with tall submerged weeds to 16-20ft and shorter submerged weeds and patch weed beds as deep as 25ft. The dense and surface weeds end at the short structure and steep drops on the north sides of the humps and islands about mid map.

This would be my assumption on the best possible migration:

A scattering in the shallow areas of the shoals and islands, probably to the 10ft submerged weedline.

Considering this is clear water generally with the best water colour being occasional yello-green, this will likely rarely occur. Maybe once or twice a season after weeks of stable weather. However, our stable weather rarely comes with low light (stable, warm weather is typically high skys and blue with little cloud cover) so I think migrations like this may actually never happen during summer.

The average migration is:

To the top of the drop off at about 55 ft. I'm not sure if overestimating the depth of the movement. Would you think the average movement would actually be from the 115ft hole to 85-90ft? Is the home of the fish in this area the drop off at 55ft?


A cold front sends the fish:

Deeper than the home and to the next breakline at 85-90ft with access to the deep hole at 115ft. Would this be correct or would they just drop down the drop off to the bottom and not migrate all the way to the 115ft hole?


John,

depths to over 200 feet in that river but there are sections where the max depth is 60-70 feet. You can make some passes starting at the weedline to make sure that they are not there but do not spend much time there before checking deeper. On your final passes, you will want your largest lures bumping the bottom in and around the deepest water in the area

What would you classify as a section? This is one concept I struggle with because of the size of this body of water. How far is too far away to consider? This map shown is about 10m x 5 miles. I suppose the strategy you are indicating would be this:

Concentrate on only the areas you can reach a lure to the bottom with by trolling (ie the 60 -70 ft areas, not the 200ft). Anything beyond this depth is unproductive because the presentation is not ideal.. So with a JBII and wire line in hand, I would be able to access the drop off but not deeper structure really. So I should focus my search for the structure that makes it all the way to the deepest water I can reach (the drop off to channel) on most days, and on good light where good movement would be expected I may be able to pick up the biggest fish if I concetrate around the drop off to channel areas close to the deepest holes?

James, I will definitely give Pat a call sometime. He is from NY side, I am from CAN side but I'm sure the intricacies are the same. Don't want it to seem like I am calling just to get hot spots or something though.

I'd have to say just asking questions back to you guys and re-reading the responses has made me think much more about the maps and structure in the area. This forum is a great avenue to help newbs in how to think.

[John Bales]

By sections I am talking about separate holes, each one will have its own group of fish. If a hole is 1/4 mile long , my lure will eventually be on the bottom in the deepest part of the hole. That's why it is important to pick the holes you can reach. If the deepest water cannot be bumped with the lure, the fish have the ability to be deeper than you can reach and you have no way of making a catch on a tough day. I would drive what ever distance it takes to find the right stretch of river where you can reach all depths. I said this before, do not ever forget that the largest fish will be in and around the deepest holes for most of it's lifetime. This is a fact. The detroit river has what they call pencil lampray's which attatch to the musky. The small musky usually had none attached to them and this is because they are always moving around like a teenager. The larger they get, the more time that they spend in the bottom of the deepest water doing nothing for most of the day till it is time for them to become active. The larger the musky, the more lamprey's they would have on them. This alone became proof of what Mr. Perry said about the big boys. They rarely come shallow once they spawn and if you want them, you need to spend your time where they are and it will be in and around the deeper sections but not so deep that you cannot get a lure down there and bump it. It is critical that you walk the bottom all the time to make the big ones take. You need to pick your areas to work where you can control your lures. I do not know how deep that they could go and use as their sanctuary. In this place, the sanctuary could be quite deep, but I do not have that answer. While you are running lures, you are waiting for the fish to become active for once or twice a day. When I am fishing a place that does have the large fish, I will be spending my time in and around the deeper holes where I have a chance for the biggest fish. Map study and then time on the water will prove Mr. Perry was always correct when making a fishing statement. The home of the adult fish is in and around the deepest water. This place is just another body of water, no different than the rest. John
Here is another way to look at the situation. The reason I pick out sections that I can reach and control lures out into the deepest water in that section is that I only have to control my lures as deep as I can go in and around this one section. If this one hole is 1/4 mile long, this amount of water can be covered and once it is all trolled,including the deepest water, I know that I have done all I can do. If the contact is not made it can only be a weather condition or there was no movement. If the deepest water is so deep that you cannot reach it, the fish can get away from you if they are beyond that depth. All of the 50+ inchers that we have caught in the Detroit river have all been in and around the deepest holes. For an example, if the deepest water in that hole is 42 feet, the fish are caught at 42 feet or at the head of that hole or the tail end of that hole or there may be a current break from a turn in the river that may run right down the center of a deeper section and we will follow that current break. They are associated with some kind of break or actually in the deepest water that exists in that section.

[beckman44]

John; I just read your reply 3 times because it says so much. You and Jerry's deep water knowledge blows me away. Bill.

[John Bales]

Bill, We just tell the truth! In our natural lakes when the thermocline exists, we do not make our catches deep during that time of year. However, when it is completely gone, this is when you can really find out a lot about controlling lures and finding the fish out into the lake basin. When there is current and there is no thermocline, then you can expect to get some action downstairs for much of the season. It's really too bad that the late fall season does not last longer. Today I went over to Dallas lake because it is right next door and Jeff Parham knocked their tails off yesterday. The boats came out of the woodwork before noon and it got so nuts out there that I just gave up. In a few weeks, the idiots will be gone and our time on the water will be more enjoyable for sure. All of what we know, Mr. Perry knew. We had to find that out on our own. John PS, There are not many that knows what Jerry knows about locating and catching the deep water fish, that is for sure. And he is better looking than me too!

[Consigliere]

Thanks so much for the thoughtful replies John. As Bill said, I re-read many times because there is so much info in just a couple paragraphs.

As I mentioned before, my plugging gear was on it's way and arrived late in the week. I was itching to get out and try it and this weekend has provided some warm, stable weather for 4-5 days and low winds so I could get out without worry.

I headed out Saturday evening at 6PM with my new wire spooled up and an 800 on the end of it. I figured I would first try the only "hot spot" I've had success with in the last 2 months, and that was a single 32" musky caught in mid-June. The plan was to move to the south end of the channel as you guys suggested then move out to a mid lake shoal for walleye at night.

Here's the original map with the bar area circled in red to show the structure I would initially focus on.



I made my way to the "hot spot" trolling around with no real plan, just trying to see what these spoonplugs can do. I would have to say I was very impressed with them. Talk about control! I practiced bumping them, not plowing, and running them just over bottom. Never used a lure that you could control this well and present so accurately. I found I could get my 800 down about 42ft with 160-170ft of 20lb wire out. I didn't really try deeper yet.

As I got the hang of it, I headed in closer to shore to troll the 15ft weedline. In some spots the weeds are out as far as 22ft, but in this particular area this is a brealine from 15ft to 20ft and the weeds stop at the edge of this breakline. As I trolled here bouncing the bottom and breakline, first snag! A spool of fishing line! Shortly after, an even bigger snag...figured it was a rock but after passing back and circling I reefed the spoonplug out to find I caught an unmarked commercial net. Unbelievable!! After freeing this up, I got to my honey hole and as the guideline says, start shallow. I found and trolled the weedline. Since I do not have markers, I use my fishfinder GPS. I marked the end of the weedline the entire way around the bar, cove and the bar on the west side to get a layout on my fish finder using GPS markers. A pass back and forth along the weedline and nothing so I moved out deeper. The next pass, at 22ft at the end of the weeds and towards the end of the bar extending from shore, bang...hookup! The line counter read 70ft of wire out, and GPS read 4.6MPH. I've never fought a fish on wire line, and had a new rod as well so couldn't tell at first but after a few seconds could tell it was sizeable. A few minutes later, and some fumbling to get the net locked together and a beauty 37", 14 northern made it in.



A few more trolls before dark and had another hit but didn't take it. It was dark soon so I headed to try for some walleye with no success.

Headed out with a friend last night to the same area. We caught two, with the nicest being this 11.5lber



I have an even more detailed contour chart of this area and here it is, marked in blue is the weedline as I remember it and the red dots are the areas we have caught fish. The yellow is my best guess at the migration route from deep water.



Here's why I think this is the case:

1) The home of the fish is the deepest water in the area - so somewhere in the dropoff from 50 ft to 85ft, this is where the majority of the movements will originate from

2) The fish will use the steepest of the breaks in the area as the contact point - I believe this is the area that I've highlighted from the deepest water to about the 25-30ft area

3) The fish will use breaks or breaklines to guide their movements - I think the breakline from the 30-40ft depths I've highlighted serves this purpose to get the fish from the depths, up the steepest break, to the structure, in this case the bar

4) On the best movements the fish will scatter from the contact point - I believe the contact point is the very end of the bar in about 25ft of water. From here, they will scatter along the weedline to as shallow as about 15ft. The two red dots where the musky and biggest northern were caught I believe is the scatter point, with the two outside dots being smaller fish caught on the scatter. The stable weather of the last 5 days, the lower light as the sun was getting low, provided the perfect conditions for this very good movement.

5) For future success when movements are not as good, focus needs to be on the drop off to the channel and the breakline in 30-40ft.

Any thoughts on my analysis here? Have to say, after 2 outtings I'm a spoonplugger for life!

[Fran Myers]

Wow, that's impressive.

New to wire, lure, bumping, trolling deep with current...and you catch some pretty nice fish the first time out. Again that's impressive. Congrats.

For the deep weed lines I would start as close to the base and then work deeper. I wouldn't worry so much for stacking the lures so much.

The bigger fish will be in deepest water. As everyone stated you need to be able to bump the deepest water. So from your post you said you got to 42 feet. Next time try finding an area where the channel is 42 feet then literally troll the bottom. Criss cross it.

For you to get to those 80' depths it would be better for you to get some JB2's. They will get that deep easily.

[Consigliere]

Thanks Fran.

Cheque is in the mail for 2 JBII and 2 JBI to get down for the big girls! Even though bumping at 42ft, I realized its going to be tough to control that deep and keep the lures in the right place, but hey its a start. Next steps are finding that right place!

As Mr. Perry says, the northerns typically move the most and the soonest and that is why the weedlines will usually produce fish but now the quest is to find the 20+ lb northerns and the depths is where we need to probe.