Depth Sounders, Graphs, and Flashers

[The Fisherman]

WOW!!!

Well for starters, thank you again to all for the information.

Kenny,
I absolutely understand now what you are saying and thank you for the clarification. The situation that you wrote about is something that we have a lot of in GA, farm ponds. I, no matter how long I am away, love to fish them. A lot of the areas farm ponds are just what you described. Dishpan and shallow, luckily the red clay offsets water color enough to have successful fishing in waters from 10-15'. I have run into the situation that you speak of but never knew how to use my electronics to fish in. Often times(I did grading for about 10 years before the army) when a small F.P. is built we obviously use a creek, build a small damn and spillway for the allowance of water flow to down stream property owners. So with this in mind there is obviously a small creek channel that exists. I always recommended people allow me, if financially possible, to did as deep as possible and make the lake deeper. This allowed for the sediment you were speaking of to get to a stopping point and leave a water depth of at least 10'. Without it you tend to be hard pressed to hold a population of adult fish in middle ga.
So after a while the sediment fills in the creek channel and there is a definite difference between the filled in channel and the surrounding area. I didn't know the electronics but the lures told me the story, all day long. Also the fish while I doubt remembered the old creek channel, the difference in bottom condition was the break. They still related to the creek channel even though it wasn't there anymore. So this in my opinion is just another advantage to knowing your equipment and using it properly. Hell, sure would have saved me some time working a 400 to find the soft filled in area and the hard old field bottom! But then again this was when I was 8-19 years old and it gave me the opportunity to really learn a lot about presentation.

Steve,
As you know one of my biggest reasons for getting a DSI was simply the viability of being able to see structures that I have fished for years. The same ones that I took my wife's grandfather too and he caught his first L.M. over 5lbs, after fishing for 70 years! I do not have any doubt that the DSI is a good piece of equipment, set up right. Additionally I have planned the entire time to have a couple different things at my disposal, kinda cause I can, thank you Afghanistan:) A regular old graph with GPS and a flasher option is what I would like to have, in conjunction with the DSI. Back home I was always supper happy to give people the grids of where the strippers were the day before so that they could take their children fishing and having it on a depth sounder is a very nice aid. So any advice on what would be the best option with what I plan on doing would be nice.

Mr. Bales,
Once again thank you for your incite. With finding a unit that will function in either flasher or graph is there anything in particular that I should look out for or be careful of when purchasing one of those? Also I know that you said the flasher has a much faster return and show speed then the graph, is this still true? If so will the same problem occur on the units that incorporate both?

JWT,
Dang man, and to think I thought that, well was hoping that all units represented stuff the same way. So on yours the wider the gray line the denser the bottom, thus harder. vise verse applying. Now I am kinda tired here and could be not reading correctly, I just cant stop. Kenny's was a narrower line for hard and a thick line for soft. Odd, not that it really is just new stuff to me is all. Thank you very much for posting the figures, just means more learning!

Thanks Kenny, Steve, John for your help!

Josh

[jwt]

Josh,
I once read - think of bouncing a tennis ball on hard pavement; it bounces back high. Bounce it on grass; the grass will absorb some of the energy and the ball will not bounce as high. SONAR is sound. Another analogy: In a room with hard(hard bottom) walls sound bounces back all over the place. Put carpets(soft bottom) on the wall and some of the sound is absorbed. Some business offices use sound absorbing ceiling tiles to cut down the noise level. Or, shine a flashlight against a gloss white wall and then shine it against a matte black wall. See the difference? True, that's light waves, but same idea.

[The Fisherman]

Certainly a good way to think about it. Thanks for the help JWT. Do they still make the Zercom flashers?

Josh

[jwt]

Josh,
Don't think so. I believe Zircom was bought by HB and discontinued the units. A couple of members of the IL Spoonpluggers(including Jimmy "Bananas" Duplex) have 'em and like 'em a lot. If I were looking for a flasher, I'd go for the one John uses; Vexilar FL-12, I believe.

[Fran Myers]

I have been watching this thread with interest. I have written a lot about HDS and most of the same things apply to the DSI units.

I would be a bit careful about comparing Zercom's and some other units with either of the HDS or DSI units. I have seen first hand that modern Vexilar Flashers show things that Zercom's don't or can't. Not that Zercom's were bad, just older. The same thing is true with the Humminbird and Impulse. John and Kenny have these machines, they are happy with them, and that's where their confidence is.
That's great and their catches aren't dependent on any sounder. It helps but I KNOW they would get the job done without any device.

Something else to keep in mind is that the Impulse crt depth sounders are not easy to find. Kenny has a few, they come up on eBay occasionally. John has a Humminbird that isn't built anymore although their are compatible units. Honestly, any modern equipment will be good and helpful.

I have had 3 different responses to this thread and deleted all of them. But I will say this. I support both the Vexilar Flasher and the DSI choice you have made.

[The Fisherman]

Fran, thanks for the pictures. I guess I can see why you wouln't have written but then again, I speak my mind even when I shouldn't so thats that. But I have some questions regarding what you posted. The first picture I assume is an HDS system?

Now the next I hope is a Lowrance DSI. Q= Is it the same spot as the HDS just shown on a DSI?
How does the HDS represent a hard soft bottom. What do the different colors represent?

With both the DSI and the side scan how do they depict bottom conditions and are all the white dots, fish, and bait fish on the big balls?

Thanks Fran

Josh

[Steve Craig]

Josh,
The 1st pic is regular Sonar. You can see the arches and ball of baitfish.
The next one is a DSI shot of the same image. You can see the arches are replaced with white dots.
And the bottom pic is simply a Side Scan image of the same shot.

I believe the narrow band of yellow in pic 1 shows a pretty hard bottom and so does the other two pics by how bright white the narrow band is.

[The Fisherman]

Steve, Thanks for the information. I know that this may seem really ignorant and it is simply because I don't know. The arcs and the white dots are easy to see either way. Yet I do find it kinda difficult to distinguish the bait fish ball. I edited the pictures with what i think they are, am i correct?

thanks again Steve
Josh

[Fran Myers]

Been flying for a couple of days. I'm not ignoring you. Let me take a nap so I can get a decent response. Steve is absolutely correct as usual.

While I do get frustrated with some responses, I didn't delete my posts because I was pissed. I figured 10 page follow ups are just too much information. I don't and didn't want to write a sonar course.

I will put together some stuff that I have been gathering but again Steve is correct. But without going into how the pictures are generated, some of the things I write won't make sense. Anyway my feet are numb so give me a few hours and I will get back to you.

[Fran Myers]

I think the best thing I can do to start off is with some terms to help you understand what it being said. Based on what you've written Josh you seem confused and that is certainly nothing to get bent about. This new tech shit can get out of hand. I will add posts - some smaller, some larger but this way the conversation can keep going.

Lowrance and Humminbird for the past 5 or so years have made radical changes to some of their equipment. Up until Humminbird's SideImagining Systems and Lowrance SideScan/DownScan systems can out - even the fanciest, most expensive graph systems were nothing more than Flasher information presented in a sideview. Over the years the various companies have used needles, graph paper and pens, liquid crystal, CRT's (TV type screens), and others displays to show depth information. Also under the box were various computer processors, wiring, or other logic that affected the way and speed of the display.

With the new Humminbird Side Imaging and Lowrance DownScan/SideScan units the amount of information being processed and the information presented on the screen is so detailed that it can be really surprising what you see. Shadows, fin's, fish in leaves on branches on limbs on trees. Hell on SideScan or SideImaging you will see shadows of fish or boats or outhouses or tires (yep saw a shadow off a car tire last May on Erie) that are off the bottom. You can even see cracks on cement walls. But this goes into another post that I am making so I will stop with these teasers...

Anyway Josh you asked if a picture was from my HDS and another from a DSI. What you are asking isn't right. BUT not exactly wrong. Let me explain. I am going to stick with Lowrance because that's what I have and I honestly don't know much about Humminbird but as with most competing products both have positive and negatives. I just chose Lowrance.

The top of the product line at Lowrance is the HDS products. HDS stands for High Definition System. It is claimed that it's a 3D picture but its a little deceptive, creative marketing. The HDS system is made up of something they call broadband sonar but again a bit creative in wording on Lowrances part. Broadband applies to the amount of data that's being processed within the unit itself. For standard sonar views even the HDS system uses the same 80/200 mhz 12 to 20 degree cones. In fact it uses the same transducer that I used with my LCX model. All the adjustments that John and Kenny suggested are what I did and do with the both the LCX AND the HDS units (sonar view only).

The magic and problem with the HDS units is that when you get the basic unit you are sold on what the unit could do IF...If you bought this fancy $600 addon or this $200 addon plus a monthly charge, and so on, and so forth. The cost is a bit steep at first and then just gets crazy. Then there is the installation, configuration, and learning curve. I have had my HDS system 1 year this month and I am surprised, lost, confused, and dazzled all at the same time. And I love it despite the problems I have had with the units. I am surprised to admit that I am beginning to love the SideScan too.

Lowrance has had some bad things happen with the HDS introduction. There was a leaky unit issue, several software problems, and some heat issues. While not immune my issues have been dealt with and I am happy with my choice.

To get beyond the standard sonar views you have to buy the StructureScan module and tranducer ($600). With this module you get the fancy DownScan/SideScan images. How the StructureScan creates the fancy pictures is a subject for another post but this is where the technology is COMPLETELY different than the standard sonar.

Now the DSI you write about is acutually the Elite-5 DSI. DSI stands for DownScan Imaging. I think Lowrance created the DSI units because when people started adding up the costs for a full blown HDS system and hearing about the problems and complexity of the system, it really didn't do Lowrance any favors in sales. So they created or at least expanded the Elite line to include single box solutions for fisherman to get exposed to the DownScan/SideScan technology.

The Elites only have DownScan. No Sonar or SideScan views. Some come with GPS others don't. I think the best bang for the buck is the Elite DSI /w GPS. If you think you're saving money by not getting the GPS well fine but unless you already have a GPS you can't get a GPS for the money you saved.

The Elites have a much smaller learning curve than the HDS - fewer settings, functions, or complexity. Quite honestly I may have gotten an Elite instead of the HDS had the unit been available. I LOVE DownScan. It looks like black and white TV. On Erie this year I saw a fishing net draped over a hang and I could see folds and ripples in the net.

So next time I will write about picture generation, cone size, false echoes, and a few other little surprises I know about.

Bye

[Bink]

My 2 cents..
All you need is a flasher and if you need a thermocline get a lowrance fish n temp on eBay for around $10. I have wanted one of these hds for awhile but after reading this post and seeing the images I'm confident that you would pick up all that on a flasher.
At the winter seminar Terry o'mally said when he finally got a flasher and went out everything he saw was the exact same as the maps he drew without any electronics. So if you following the guidelines you Should have a good idea allready of what's there.

[david powell]

AMAN BINK. SEEMS TO ME SOME PEOPLE NOWADAYS ARE TRYING TO BUY SUCCESS IN A FANCY WRAPPED PACKAGE

[Fran Myers]

There is nothing wrong with discussing modern technology. People are going to buy it they may as well make informed decisions. Bink you're right. David you're right. Without following the guidelines it doesn't matter what electronics you buy. However, following the the guidelines with the modern aids isn't a crime nor was it frowned on. Ask John the things he sees now and what differences it has made to his fishing. Or Kenny using a 30 year plus old unit that does what he wants. Both are correct.

I have a friend who is a distributor of Lowrance and Humminbird products. I was planning on going to South Africa to help him and others with some basic Spoonplugging stuff. He said now was not the right time because he couldn't get people to use the electronics correctly or even do what he would tell them. I have tried to explain that we'd be better off with no electronics and just sticking with the guidelines than depend on his gadgets.

However I know that people using Zercom are more than happy. I also KNOW that if I showed them the Vexilar products they would be SHOCKED at the difference. They are both flashers. One old, one updated and modern. Is a person buying success if they switch from a Zercom to a Vexilar?

No one here has made ANY statements about buying success.

[Steve Craig]

Gotta agree with Fran on this one fellows.........

Not one person here is trying to " buy success in a fancy wrapped package". Just the opposite.

If that is your perception, then you would be wrong here.

I thought we were having a very fine DISCUSSION on the differences between the different tools/aids, that are available out there for us to use.......if we so choose.

Josh was asking some very good questions about the units above. While he is a very good Spoonplugger in his own right, there is no doubt in my mind, that a quality unit will AID him in becoming even better in his fishing. Especially in his lake types and in the deeper areas of said lakes!
ANY TOOL OR AID THAT HELPS YOU INTERPRET A FISHING SITUATION BETTER IS A GOOD THING!
I KNOW FOR A FACT IT HAS HELPED ME!!!!!
I would be willing to bet John, Fran, Jerry, Kenny, and others will echo my thoughts here.

Josh,
I see 4 bait balls in Frans pics. I also see alot of fish down there too! What kind of fish are they?.....My lures will tell me that part.
Alot of the stuff near the surface is simply surface clutter.

Steve

[Bink]

Im not implying that anyone is trying to buy fishing success or frowning upon modern technology(Im a huge tech geek).
Im just saying for what he is looking for I think a cheap flasher and water temp gauge is all he needs.
If he wants to see fins, tires,beer cans,nets,etc.. he will have to invest a lot of time/money getting it set up.