Upon returning from the Jamboree at KY Lake I reviewed the sections in the "green book" on fishing deltas to see if we(fishing partner and I) missed anything. How many remember this from page 42 where Buck talks about a feeder-stream cut through the delta? I didn't.
Normally, the movements of the fish will be to the breaks and breaklines on the upstream side of these cuts.
And,
The normal position in casting would be to place the boat on the upstream side of the cut...
Here's another question: Why the upstream side?
Delta ridges
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The Fisherman
Re: Delta ridges
Cool deal JWT, about time we got someone else involved here!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why the upstream side????
If we look at the effects of the original river on the surrounding land area that it passed through we see that at the intersection of feeders or cuts and the main river there are two very distinct situations. One on the upstream and one on the downstream.
The downstream is more like the outside bend of a river, steeper and more vertical. Due to the current flow at that spot it left little to no breaks or breaklines.
On the upstream side we find a very different scenario . It is generally more flat, with breaklines created by water levels. Also there tends to be more breaks. This is due to the fact that there is less current, only the main river exerts any pressure here. On the downstream both the feeder and the main river combine creating more current washing away any breaks and breaklines available.
I am considering cuts in the same light as the feeders because water will produce the same structure situations either way. Nature doesn't care if its a cut or feeder stream. The only difference either way is the amount of water flow. Period. Both are fished the same way. This is why I think the upside of the cut is generally more productive. Although it can be reversed, what Mr. Perry said is the overall "norm". One thing to remember is that the delta while the most overlooked is not always the most productive. Because in most cases it does NOT go all the way. So using the cut/intersection as a GUIDE to the structure be it a bar, hump, whatever is very possibly the way to go.
Why the upstream side????
If we look at the effects of the original river on the surrounding land area that it passed through we see that at the intersection of feeders or cuts and the main river there are two very distinct situations. One on the upstream and one on the downstream.
The downstream is more like the outside bend of a river, steeper and more vertical. Due to the current flow at that spot it left little to no breaks or breaklines.
On the upstream side we find a very different scenario . It is generally more flat, with breaklines created by water levels. Also there tends to be more breaks. This is due to the fact that there is less current, only the main river exerts any pressure here. On the downstream both the feeder and the main river combine creating more current washing away any breaks and breaklines available.
I am considering cuts in the same light as the feeders because water will produce the same structure situations either way. Nature doesn't care if its a cut or feeder stream. The only difference either way is the amount of water flow. Period. Both are fished the same way. This is why I think the upside of the cut is generally more productive. Although it can be reversed, what Mr. Perry said is the overall "norm". One thing to remember is that the delta while the most overlooked is not always the most productive. Because in most cases it does NOT go all the way. So using the cut/intersection as a GUIDE to the structure be it a bar, hump, whatever is very possibly the way to go.
Re: Delta ridges
Josh,
Well thought out answer.
While he said the breaks and breaklines on the upstream side are "normally" the LZ of movements, Buck went on to say it is not always the case, and all portions of the cut should be thoroughly checked. A couple of hundred feet on each side of the cut and the feeder-stream channels. The whole discussion of working a Delta condition(page 142) is packed with information.
Getting people involved with discussions here would be good; learn from the old timers, e.g. Doug "The Lone Fisherman" Bush. All would benefit; keep ya mentally fit during the winter months while waiting for the ice to melt.
Well thought out answer.
While he said the breaks and breaklines on the upstream side are "normally" the LZ of movements, Buck went on to say it is not always the case, and all portions of the cut should be thoroughly checked. A couple of hundred feet on each side of the cut and the feeder-stream channels. The whole discussion of working a Delta condition(page 142) is packed with information.
Getting people involved with discussions here would be good; learn from the old timers, e.g. Doug "The Lone Fisherman" Bush. All would benefit; keep ya mentally fit during the winter months while waiting for the ice to melt.
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The Fisherman
Re: Delta ridges
You cannot be more correct with stating that Mr. Perry said that both sides must be checked out. To not do this would be like only casting one finger on a bar and never touching the others while waiting for movement. I agree that having others participate would be great, but if they are not willing then so be it.
Delta ridges are very common in some reservoirs. I spent my entire life on a flatlander in GA and had some great lessons on when to fish them and certainly when not to. Any structure situation must go all the way, we read this quite often. Water color will have a great affect on what "all the way is" but in this situation lets say good color and all the way is the standard 8-10'. In the lake in GA you will find that most of your delta situations that are large enough to see and fish are in the northern end of the lake, where it turns back into a river. The majority of the lake does not have much of a delta ridge. The parts that do, are like my normal thing, at feeder intersections. These are the areas in which you would look for both cuts in the deltas, and structure situations going all the way to the channel. In both cases the contact point seems to be on the delta, with the difference being that when the water depth is so great that the delta is not the stopping point, the fish will pause there and then continue on their migration route. So question, what or how would they migrate from a delta(29') to shallower water when a fish will not go down hill to get shallow?
Joshua Douglas Travis
Delta ridges are very common in some reservoirs. I spent my entire life on a flatlander in GA and had some great lessons on when to fish them and certainly when not to. Any structure situation must go all the way, we read this quite often. Water color will have a great affect on what "all the way is" but in this situation lets say good color and all the way is the standard 8-10'. In the lake in GA you will find that most of your delta situations that are large enough to see and fish are in the northern end of the lake, where it turns back into a river. The majority of the lake does not have much of a delta ridge. The parts that do, are like my normal thing, at feeder intersections. These are the areas in which you would look for both cuts in the deltas, and structure situations going all the way to the channel. In both cases the contact point seems to be on the delta, with the difference being that when the water depth is so great that the delta is not the stopping point, the fish will pause there and then continue on their migration route. So question, what or how would they migrate from a delta(29') to shallower water when a fish will not go down hill to get shallow?
Joshua Douglas Travis
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Steve Craig
- JB2
- Posts: 1967
- Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:22 pm
- Location: Arizona
Re: Delta ridges
Josh,
I feel they will migrate along the main channel breakline until they hit a spot that leads them all the way.
Now......a question for you.
Maybe Kenny will jump in here as this pertains to him. On Chickamauga he finds fish stacked at spots(cuts, dead end washes, slides etc) that do not go all the way. Buck talks about the dead end washes that "peter out" right there just feet from the main channel, yet still very deep( 40 to 30 feet down.
I have seen what Kenny is talking about on the lake maps. How do you account for this situation?
I feel they will migrate along the main channel breakline until they hit a spot that leads them all the way.
Now......a question for you.
Maybe Kenny will jump in here as this pertains to him. On Chickamauga he finds fish stacked at spots(cuts, dead end washes, slides etc) that do not go all the way. Buck talks about the dead end washes that "peter out" right there just feet from the main channel, yet still very deep( 40 to 30 feet down.
I have seen what Kenny is talking about on the lake maps. How do you account for this situation?
Religion is a guy in church, thinking about fishing.
Relationship is a guy out fishing, thinking about God!
Relationship is a guy out fishing, thinking about God!
Re: Delta ridges
Josh,
Is the lake clear-cut or does it have standing trees?
Clear-cut: I agree with Steve; they will follow the main channel breakline until they reach a spot where there is a migration route that leads "all the way". (Steve, of course, would use a predator call to lure the fish!
Just funin ya Steve.)
With standing trees: if the treetops are at the height of the top of the delta, they could provide a migration route that goes "all the way"
Is the lake clear-cut or does it have standing trees?
Clear-cut: I agree with Steve; they will follow the main channel breakline until they reach a spot where there is a migration route that leads "all the way". (Steve, of course, would use a predator call to lure the fish!
Just funin ya Steve.) With standing trees: if the treetops are at the height of the top of the delta, they could provide a migration route that goes "all the way"
Last edited by jwt on Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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The Fisherman
Re: Delta ridges
Good one Steve,
I think that you are correct about the fish migrating up or down the main river channel breakline to a break, be it a wash cut or other. I could be mistaken but I think the Book covers that briefly in a diagram. As far as your question to me and accounting for why the fish will utilize structure that does not go all the way, I have what I think is the correct answer for you, not that you needed me to tell you.
I spent many years wandering the same thing. It bothered me because Mr. Perry said that they would not use this stuff, right? Well not entirely. He said that, I believe, so that the larger masses wouldn't wast their time on unproductive deep structure. Also for the majority of waters that contain Large Mouth there is little reason to fish a wash or cut without any other major feature present. That's the first part of the answer that I came to for my own issue.
Next, most of the time the fish are dormant(we know this) and most of the time the fish will become active and move once or twice a day towards the shallower parts of a structure. I am going to tie in what you said about migration leading up or down a main channel breakline to this as well. The home of the fish is to be considered in the deepest water in the area being fished. So if that is the 45' old river channel so be it. In the south east we have an OK water color most of the time and that means that the fish do not have to go all the way back to the bottom of the main river channel. They can instead stop or pause in a "wash" or other break that occurs in between a good structure situation that does go all the way, and their deep water home. With this being the case it can and should I think be easy to see how the L.M. can be found in such situations on certain bodies of water on a regular basis by a good Spoonplugger. So Mr. Craig I guess to kinda sum up and not go too in depth, going to play darts its my night off:) Fish in a flood plain(or other)type reservoir were a delta ridge can be found can and will use different features of the delta. Different species will use structures occurring at different depths, the all the way can be 8-10 or 25-30 one for L.M. and one for Strippers. Also the water color in the lake will play a very vital role in just how shallow the all the way is, as you well know. So Mr. Kenny should really chime in here but I believe strongly as certain others that Mr. Perry did not tell us all he knew. He gave us guidelines. So to say that a structure must go all the way he didn't mislead. He was talking to the average joe. A structure in normal circumstances must go all the way, but where do the fish come from? They move along the main channel breakline until they reach a break that has signposts to shallower water. They, the fish, do not have to go all the way and the biggest ones will not. So to find them in a deep water wash or cut on a delta ridge means that you have learned well from Mr. Perry and expounded on what he taught us. Your basic guidelines have showed you the shallower things and led you to the deep path the fish use to migrate from their home to the area where most have caught them.
To add one more thing, I really want to fish with you Mr. Craig. I love a challenge and those big deep clear lakes would I'm sure test my presentation and mapping/ Interpretation! Did I answer the question in a way that makes sense?
Josh
I think that you are correct about the fish migrating up or down the main river channel breakline to a break, be it a wash cut or other. I could be mistaken but I think the Book covers that briefly in a diagram. As far as your question to me and accounting for why the fish will utilize structure that does not go all the way, I have what I think is the correct answer for you, not that you needed me to tell you.
I spent many years wandering the same thing. It bothered me because Mr. Perry said that they would not use this stuff, right? Well not entirely. He said that, I believe, so that the larger masses wouldn't wast their time on unproductive deep structure. Also for the majority of waters that contain Large Mouth there is little reason to fish a wash or cut without any other major feature present. That's the first part of the answer that I came to for my own issue.
Next, most of the time the fish are dormant(we know this) and most of the time the fish will become active and move once or twice a day towards the shallower parts of a structure. I am going to tie in what you said about migration leading up or down a main channel breakline to this as well. The home of the fish is to be considered in the deepest water in the area being fished. So if that is the 45' old river channel so be it. In the south east we have an OK water color most of the time and that means that the fish do not have to go all the way back to the bottom of the main river channel. They can instead stop or pause in a "wash" or other break that occurs in between a good structure situation that does go all the way, and their deep water home. With this being the case it can and should I think be easy to see how the L.M. can be found in such situations on certain bodies of water on a regular basis by a good Spoonplugger. So Mr. Craig I guess to kinda sum up and not go too in depth, going to play darts its my night off:) Fish in a flood plain(or other)type reservoir were a delta ridge can be found can and will use different features of the delta. Different species will use structures occurring at different depths, the all the way can be 8-10 or 25-30 one for L.M. and one for Strippers. Also the water color in the lake will play a very vital role in just how shallow the all the way is, as you well know. So Mr. Kenny should really chime in here but I believe strongly as certain others that Mr. Perry did not tell us all he knew. He gave us guidelines. So to say that a structure must go all the way he didn't mislead. He was talking to the average joe. A structure in normal circumstances must go all the way, but where do the fish come from? They move along the main channel breakline until they reach a break that has signposts to shallower water. They, the fish, do not have to go all the way and the biggest ones will not. So to find them in a deep water wash or cut on a delta ridge means that you have learned well from Mr. Perry and expounded on what he taught us. Your basic guidelines have showed you the shallower things and led you to the deep path the fish use to migrate from their home to the area where most have caught them.
To add one more thing, I really want to fish with you Mr. Craig. I love a challenge and those big deep clear lakes would I'm sure test my presentation and mapping/ Interpretation! Did I answer the question in a way that makes sense?
Josh
Re: Delta ridges
Steve,
Buck refers to washes as breaks on a breakline, not structure situations, ergo fish may pause at one occasionally(for a PB & J, perhaps?). If fish are found in a wash while trolling, stop and cast.
These Q & A posts are great! Makes ya think.
Buck refers to washes as breaks on a breakline, not structure situations, ergo fish may pause at one occasionally(for a PB & J, perhaps?). If fish are found in a wash while trolling, stop and cast.
These Q & A posts are great! Makes ya think.
Last edited by jwt on Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Fisherman
Re: Delta ridges
Well I do agree with you in a way Fran but not completely. Bass will move miles and they will use structure that is deep. But....while the channel breakline may seem to be endless and the fish just moving along(wandering) I do NOT agree. THe fish will move a considerable distance down a channel breakline. The key point were most can make contact is at the channel and feeder intersection. So the hump thing, early in the life of a lake that is a reality, and based on water color it could remain for the life of a lake or become a predominate structure if the water color is such that the fish never come shallower. So that is what I was trying to say when I wrote of the shallow water can be at 8-10 or can be at 20-25'. The comment about fishing too deep. That is very possible! and I know that I have missed a lot of numbers by waiting for the big ones in deeper water. They never came. But for general fishing you will not be too deep.
Joshua Douglas Travis
Joshua Douglas Travis
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The Fisherman
Re: Delta ridges
Fran I was re-reading your post and had a few more thoughts over it. The bonanza for bass on the main channel breakline. Me and a certain person had some lengthy discussion about this before the Jamboree and both came to different conclusions. He said the same thing that you did and I said that the feeder arms and where they intersect. Now I could very well be missing your point here but I believe that you are saying the fish should just be on the main channel breakline, is that correct?
Mr. Perry wrote several times about checking the fishing reports and taking them with a grain of salt, but still check them. So our spoonpluggers went out after hearing that all the fish were shallow with very little left on the main channel breakline yet...they still fished it? Why? If all the reports are saying that people are catching fish on "shallow cover" in the feeder arms then that kinda tells me that I should fish the washes and cuts in the feeder arms as well as the main river and feeder arm intersection.
Based on the seasonal movements of fish there are several things that can be noted before getting on the water. With the lake being fished and its geographic location, we can very well assume that the fish are already well into the transition period of summer to winter and we should be focusing on steeper shorter structures. I know that everyone loves to talk about deltas and I love to fish them if necessary but if the fish aint there why do it? The deltas lead us to the intersections, the intersections go all the way to the arms and the shallows, where then we find a steeper structure in the arm then in the main lake. Heck maybe I'm crazy but these are basic guidelines and seems that there are some kinda scattered ideas. Fran I believe that me and you are probably saying the same thing but all we see are words on a screen and we arn't actually talking. So I mean none of this to offend anyone. But you absolutely can fish too deep, you can fish too shallow, but if you actually follow the guidelines then you will wind up at fish. and 6 days after a cold front you should be able to find a school of fish. Unless they are not where you are looking, the largest of the fish will transition last, they are reluctant to move anywhere, much less miles. Also there are certainly less 8lbs bass than 3lbs so to only catch a couple of big ones and not really any small ones then says you were on good structure but the numbers were not there. They had already moved on.Seasonally
Joshua Douglas Travis
Mr. Perry wrote several times about checking the fishing reports and taking them with a grain of salt, but still check them. So our spoonpluggers went out after hearing that all the fish were shallow with very little left on the main channel breakline yet...they still fished it? Why? If all the reports are saying that people are catching fish on "shallow cover" in the feeder arms then that kinda tells me that I should fish the washes and cuts in the feeder arms as well as the main river and feeder arm intersection.
Based on the seasonal movements of fish there are several things that can be noted before getting on the water. With the lake being fished and its geographic location, we can very well assume that the fish are already well into the transition period of summer to winter and we should be focusing on steeper shorter structures. I know that everyone loves to talk about deltas and I love to fish them if necessary but if the fish aint there why do it? The deltas lead us to the intersections, the intersections go all the way to the arms and the shallows, where then we find a steeper structure in the arm then in the main lake. Heck maybe I'm crazy but these are basic guidelines and seems that there are some kinda scattered ideas. Fran I believe that me and you are probably saying the same thing but all we see are words on a screen and we arn't actually talking. So I mean none of this to offend anyone. But you absolutely can fish too deep, you can fish too shallow, but if you actually follow the guidelines then you will wind up at fish. and 6 days after a cold front you should be able to find a school of fish. Unless they are not where you are looking, the largest of the fish will transition last, they are reluctant to move anywhere, much less miles. Also there are certainly less 8lbs bass than 3lbs so to only catch a couple of big ones and not really any small ones then says you were on good structure but the numbers were not there. They had already moved on.Seasonally
Joshua Douglas Travis
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Steve Craig
- JB2
- Posts: 1967
- Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:22 pm
- Location: Arizona
Re: Delta ridges
What happened to Frans post? I dont see it.
You have to understand......this cold front was one of the harshest in a very long time.
When you cant see a jet trail for 6 days, then it is a bad one.
The one good fish I hooked, came from 41-42 feet and as Frank Hammil said you can tell by that telltale slow side to side head shake that it was a good fish, but was only on for seconds.
But he was there and I am sure more were there too as David Erdly and myself got a hit in that spot on the cast right after I lost mine. So they were deep.
Buck told one time of watching a big bass in Florida in one of those glass bottomed boats laying on it side in the deepest water around. He checked it every day during a really bad frontal condition. It never moved from that spot for 6 days. He said you would have thought the bass was dead. On the 7th day while he was looking at it, he saw it move its eyes a little, then all of a sudden upright itself. Then it just set there and didnt move around much. The next day it was gone.
Although this is in a shallower Florida lake, it does show what can happen to the bass after a severe front passes.
I cant remember where or who asked this question, but someone asked what all this deep water talk was about?
It is my understanding that Buck said that in the future, we would all have to learn how to catch them deeper due to the aging factor of our lakes, zebra mussels clearing up the lakes, weeds/moss growing deeper etc.
Out here, you had better learn to fish deeper if you want to catch the bigger fish. It is a fact of life here. ( lost a HUGE bass a couple days ago that was very deep and it was the biggest bass I had every seen in my life) Lost him at the boat while bringing him in, and this was a 9-10 pound fish.
So we either learn to fish deeper on structure or we must stay content with catching the smaller pound and a half/ two pound fish.
Again...what happened to Frans post?
You have to understand......this cold front was one of the harshest in a very long time.
When you cant see a jet trail for 6 days, then it is a bad one.
The one good fish I hooked, came from 41-42 feet and as Frank Hammil said you can tell by that telltale slow side to side head shake that it was a good fish, but was only on for seconds.
But he was there and I am sure more were there too as David Erdly and myself got a hit in that spot on the cast right after I lost mine. So they were deep.
Buck told one time of watching a big bass in Florida in one of those glass bottomed boats laying on it side in the deepest water around. He checked it every day during a really bad frontal condition. It never moved from that spot for 6 days. He said you would have thought the bass was dead. On the 7th day while he was looking at it, he saw it move its eyes a little, then all of a sudden upright itself. Then it just set there and didnt move around much. The next day it was gone.
Although this is in a shallower Florida lake, it does show what can happen to the bass after a severe front passes.
I cant remember where or who asked this question, but someone asked what all this deep water talk was about?
It is my understanding that Buck said that in the future, we would all have to learn how to catch them deeper due to the aging factor of our lakes, zebra mussels clearing up the lakes, weeds/moss growing deeper etc.
Out here, you had better learn to fish deeper if you want to catch the bigger fish. It is a fact of life here. ( lost a HUGE bass a couple days ago that was very deep and it was the biggest bass I had every seen in my life) Lost him at the boat while bringing him in, and this was a 9-10 pound fish.
So we either learn to fish deeper on structure or we must stay content with catching the smaller pound and a half/ two pound fish.
Again...what happened to Frans post?
Religion is a guy in church, thinking about fishing.
Relationship is a guy out fishing, thinking about God!
Relationship is a guy out fishing, thinking about God!
-
The Fisherman
Re: Delta ridges
I have not a clue about where his post went. I also want to say that I am not saying anyone was bad or anything of the sort. I am simply saying that I would not have just fished the main river channel breakline. I would have focused more on the arms and creek intersections. Also what you said about fishing deeper as the lakes get older...there is not a better truth. Cant be helped. And when I said that the fish may have not been there, I added that the largest would not move as far into the arms and would move last. So I can't say me and you disagree Steve, and I certainly cannot wait to meet you and Fran at the Jamboree when I get to come. Then I bet we are saying the same thing more than we think now. But still you can fish too deep...lol...really I've done it. This aint lake Mead...thank GOD!!!!!!!
Josh
Josh
Re: Delta ridges
Josh,
I'm not quite clear about what you meant in your earlier post; to wit:
Maybe Fran deleted his post for some reason.
I'm not quite clear about what you meant in your earlier post; to wit:
Did you mean the place where the feeder-creek channels cut through the delta, i.e. the bars on either side of the intersection?He said the same thing that you did and I said that the feeder arms and where they intersect.
Maybe Fran deleted his post for some reason.
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The Fisherman
Re: Delta ridges
Sorry for the confusion JWT. The individual that I was speaking of had the main channel breakline in mind only, as well as the washes and small cuts that exsist in the delta. In the summer I would not have disagreed although I would have still fished the main channel and the feeder intersections along with any adjacent delta situations. Yet being the seasonal situation that was had, I would have focused my efforts mainly on the feeder arm channels and steeper structure situations that were at any wash into the feeder creek channel. I really don't mean to ruffle any feathers about this stuff. It just seems to me that people forgot that the deltas are not always the best,they are simply the most overlooked. If the books are checked it seems pretty simple to note that you should be in the "coves with a cut, or feeder stream" during the colder months. Now I know it isn't winter just yet, but if the fish are being caught by the locals up on the banks in the arms then maybe, if numbers are wanted, you should check the shallows, then move deeper. That is supposed to be our approach so it strikes me as odd that, only hearsay, most went strait to the deep. Now, as Mr. Craig spoke of, the largest fish(L.M) will not move until last. They will wait until the last second possible then gone. So while the numbers, in my opinion were simply not there due to season; the big boys were still there. Heck they may not ever leave that deepest water and go to the arms, they simply may not. If you are willing to give up 50 five pounders for a couple of 9-10's, well the chance any way, then thats on you.
Josh
Josh