short linning & small plugs extra deep

[DouglasBush]

You mentioned something about my sharing knowledge. Here is something that if you're not doing it, you're missing out on some real surprises.
Spend a number of hours with a 100 behind you and just about 8 feet of line out. Yes.......8 feet, with the lure back there running along in all the confusion created by the engine. Get in the shallows close to a weedline or rocks or something and have at this fine straggler chasing presentation. This is a lazy man's dream!
You're going to get your arm almost yanked out of the socket and you're going to be surprised at the number of big fish that can conceal themselves in the shallows under some rocks or weeds and will come out of there like a rocket to nail that piece of junk as it goes wobbling by.
Frank Hammil says he uses a 700 for this but I tried it and the 700 just wears my arm out messing with it.
If you're already doing it, then I am preaching to the choir.
I cant tell you how many thousands of dollars I have won in matchups doing this "insane" procedure. (and you dont get hung up, lose lures, and have to pay outrageous prices for replacements). You may ride for miles and miles but you will get some fish.....obviously being on some rip-rap really helps out.
I have now shared some knowledge. (90% of those reading this will never do it though)
Selah,
Douglas

[pat maio]

Thanks for the tip. I'll be into that this fishing season. A couple questions:
1. Any species more catchable than others?
2. Have you ever experimented in deep water? The reason I ask this is that there are some big trout in my lake and they suspend over open water a good part of the time. I would regard this also as straggler fishing for those times when the fish aren't moving well.
Thanks..............pat

[Guest]

#1 I have only caught largemouth bass and yellow perch with this procedure. I have heard Buck say that this is like having a license to steal on Northerns....he thought they were pretty dumb fish anyway.


Buck told me once that in catching trout suspended over breaklines that he would get the lure down to the depth where they were on the locator and then he would just cut the engine back to zero and suddenly rev it up again and the trout would attack. He also did that on Lake Allatoona here in Georgia for crappie he could see suspended at about 15'. He ran a 100 with a couple of jigs tied on behind it and kept it steady and then suddenly cut the speed to zero and then rev it back up and he'd get doubles all day.

Thats about all I know about it.
Douglas

[John Bales]

The last that I heard, the 800 was the #1 selling lure. Why? For several reasons. You ever heard this said? " The older and bigger a fish gets, the more reluctant he is to move towards the shallows." The sanctuary for the bass,35 feet. Big muskies , you better check from 45 to 55 feet. It is in the green book and that was written in the 60's. Our waters are clearing because of the zebra muscles. Less fish move to the shallows, stay for less time ect,ect.......... All of this leads me to fish deeper. I dont mind getting into a group of 3 yo 4 lb bass once in a while but I would much rather have one 7 to 8 lbs and the same for the muskies. I like 40 inchers but would rather catch one or two over 50 inches rather than two dozen 40 inchers. This is just what I like and to get these results where we fish , we must use the bigger lures to do the job.
In the waters we fish where the smaller lures is what it takes and there is good color then that is what we do. Where ever the fish are is where we want to be. It really does'nt matter to us if the fish are in 10 feet or 60.
I personally like it when they are in the deeper waters. I know that they are untouched and at times are easy pickings. In many cases , we have them all to ourselves and may not have ever seen a lure before.
Some guys hate fishing deep. I just happen to enjoy it . But to each his own. Whatever floats your boat.
Mr. Perry has always preached water color. If you have good color, you can catch some fish on the smaller lures. It is worth driving a bit further to find water color. But you must learn to fish deeper because you dont always have that option.
I dont think that us catching the big muskies on the Detroit river had anything to do with the sales of the 800's. I just think that the majority of the spoonpluggers out there have realized that they need that tool to reach deeper breaklines in the clearer waters and for the biggest fish in the lake. The bigger, the better. John

[pat maio]

Thanks for the info all you guys. I can understand B'uck saying that about the Northern. Also, I seem to recall Buck mentioning that the short line and the lure in the wash of the motor was particularly good on smallmouth.
I'll add that I enjoy fishing deep on wire. I know if I catch a fish the odds are that it is probably a good one.
Speaking of the 800.....
Did you guys see the picture of Jim Mason with his catch of saltwater stripers (he also bagged 18 bluefish, 5 to 15 lbs). He explained that the fish were right on the channel edge in the inlet. The place was loaded with bait fishermen because of the striper run. He only saw 2 fish being taken and I guess he woke them all up when a 20 lb striper came out of the water.As John mentioned "Whatever floats your boat."

[John Bales]

Hats off to these striper boys. Great catch. And if you don't mind me saying, they got their eight dollars worth and then some. And if an 800 and the knowledge that went with it was not available, they too would have sat there with the live bait and thought that the fish were just not biting today. Great catch John

[pat maio]

Okay Douglas, I can't resist either....
As usual, I agree with most of what you say. Let me have my two cents on what I don't agree with. Okay?
Yes, the 800 has a tendency to hang up often because of its size. But, there are solutions....I seldom use the 800
1. If the place being fished has a hand that reaches out to gobble up spoonplugs, (there are such places) then you move to another fishing spot. Sound reasonable?
2. I have proven to myself that if you use a smaller s/p you do not experience the hangs that you would with a larger one. Buck once told me how he had runa a 200 down to 50 ft. This was an eye opener. But when you think about it it makes sense. If you let the lure settle to the bottom it will not ride up regardless of size.And a smaller lure will definitely not hang up as much as a larger size .most SPOONPLUGGERS like myself have become accustomed to the code of double the running depth on wire ---but that is only the beginning. With enough line you can run a smaller s/p as far down as you desire.
3. Of course if you do not like fishing deep this is all a moot point. But at least you can get away from the lost 800s bit. It doesn't have to be that way...........pat

[DouglasBush]

Now this is good news!
You're telling me that if I get a 100 or a 200 down there with wire in say 40 feet, the lure wont rise off the bottom when I start chugging along? It will stay down there and dig and walk? If this is so, that opens up a new dimension for money misers like me.
Please amplify this some more and tell a few stories of when and how you did it, etc etc.
I cannot imagine getting a little 250 to stay down there...
Talk to me, man, talk to me. I am all ears......
Regards,
Douglas

[pat maio]

Douglas:
This is most unusual, me giving advice to you but let's keep it in perspective. This tip came one time when I was talking to Buck. I'm hazy on most of the details but I can say this: In a special situation Buck found he had to use a smaller size s/p to get way, way down there to catch a fish. I was shocked to hear this because as I said, we take the code of double the depth on wire as gospel.
Anyway....
I fish the channel edges and sides on my lake from 25 to 40 ft on wire. I learned early on that the 700 and 800 hung up much too often and I was losing too many. I remembered Buck's advice and went to a 200 for an experiment one day early in the season. The fates were kind to me that day as I made one run along the edge with no hangs. Also the catch was strange. One run produced a smallie, a walleye, a northern and surprise, surprise--a good sized rainbow. Yeah on the bottom. I can't explain the whys. I was elated and I E mailed Jim Mason (he of the striper pic) telling him about the experiment and he found it interesting.
There are a couple caveats and they are critical!
1. You will use longer wire lengths with the smaller sizes. I'm certain of this even though I've only experimented with the 200. Line length is critical. It must be just right to tick the bottom and not have too much length to cause a "bow" else you will get hung and the s/p won't run right.
Take the extra time to find and record the perfect length of wire.
2. When line is out stop the boat (or crawl) and be sure wire and s/p have sunk. When you feel the first bump then move.
3. The s/p will not ride up if you have the correct speed. Remember when fishing this deep the speed is slower, just enough to cause a bump. I've never fished fast deep so I can't answer that one. Buck mentions that fishing deep calls for slow speeds.
4. Remember I said that the purpose of all this was to cut down on hangs and loses of expensive larger sizes. I never said you will never get hung.
In my mind I'm convinced that the smaller sizes will not hang as much as the larger sizes. I rarely ever use the 700 or 800. Of course I usually fish in water 40 ft or less. The way the water is clearing I may yet cherish those larger sizes.
At this point I think it would be beneficial to have our more experienced s/ps chime in and offer their thoughts or experience with this subject.
Hope this helps....

[John Bales]

I have learned an awftel lot over the last couple of seasons, not only how to run lures in deeper water (with heavy current) but how not to lose so many. Our first season or two we lost lots of lures. Not to snags but with experimenting on which rigs to use to cope with the zebra muscles. We used wire leaders, we used wire to a #10 swivel and back to wire, we used the wire directly to a snap and right to the lure. This last one cost me a bundle of 800's two years ago untill we finally figured what was going on. When we walk the bottom in the river for the muskies, we walk harder than normal with a lot of speed, even in 30 to 40 feet. By not using somekind of a link, like a piece of heavy mono or a steel leader or whatever, the lure was not able to work properly from side to side. This also put a great deal of pressure on the line tie and where the split ring connects to the spoonplug. We finally went with an 80lb test mono and when we tie our wire , we run the wire through twice and then haywire twist the looped end plus the one single (opposite end) around the one going to the rod. This enables the lure to work and no more lost lures. We have a floating weed problem there also so we are doing a lot of jerking. Last year we only lost a handful of 800's.
You can get the smaller lures to go very deep if you are running enough line. Just like you said, you must slow the boat to a crawl and just as soon as you feel the lure bump , you increase the speed. If you do not have enough line out, the lure will come off and you must let out more and start over. In snag infested waters, it may take some time and lost lures to get the right line legnth to just tip the tops of the higher stuff. I guess that you have to weigh the fish caught against the lost lures and tell yourself if it is worth it or not.
Where a lot of people go wrong is running too much line. If too much line is used, then the wire will drag the bottom before the lure and you will be hung all the time. There are some places that are so infested with snags that it is just not worth the time and effort. Find yourself some other place that you can work that is clean.
There is a time and place for fishing deeper. If you dont have to go that deep to make a catch then consider yourself lucky for that day but there will come a day that you will need to go there and it is for those times that you would like to be ready. John

[jwt]

I'll just add my $0.02 in and confirm what Pat said. Years ago I fished the same lake along the same river channel as Pat and got the same tip from Buck. He said use a 100 vs a 700 or 800 when going deep. I tried it, it worked.

The key to it, as Pat said, is greater line length(start with 22 -24 layers 12# or 17# wire) and troll at a low speed. Let out the wire, slow the boat to a crawl(moving just enough to keep a slight tension on the wire so the lure won't tumble) and let the lure sink, and sink, and sink. When you think the lure is on the bottom, kick the boat forward. If it is, you'll feel the lure tug slightly as you start forward.

I haven't tried with a 200 but will do so the next time out.

John: comments about using the above for big muskies down deep?

JWT

[John Bales]

JWT, There are several reasons for the smaller lures in the deeper waters. One is for the species like the white bass. An ofering of a smaller lure so that the fish can get it in their mouth. The other option would be using a three way with a jig with the larger lures to pull it down to the desired depth. The other reason is the deeper we go, the less active the fish may be and the longer lines with the smaller lure is the way to go for the less active fish. However, once the fish become active then the shorter lines and bigger lures is the ticket. Also the smaller lures are less apt to get hung up when you are working a snag infested area.
When fishing for the muskies, we want the biggest lure that we can get. We want to offer these critters a mouthfull. However, we plan on experimenting this season with the 700's and 100's with a longer line when the muskies seem to be less active just to see what happens. Going downstream would not present a problem but using anything but an 800 going up would not be as efficient. John

[site admin]

Here's an example of why you should use LARGE baits for big fish!