Structure Situation "C" This is of the 44' hole. Fran, please forgive me I didn't have this map in front of me when I answered your post and I was WRONG. I have fished a crap load of these lakes in AK and I just always think of this one and Clunie lake as weed heaven. This area as well has a spot with hard gravel type bottom, once you get over 40' it turns back into muck. On the top, left of the map there are SOME weeds that do not extend very deep approx: 3-6' on the bottom right there are some pad type vegetation.
The 30' foot breakline in this section of water is decently pronounced where as the 40' is not it does to answer jwt's question have a "bit" of a finger extending toward the break(vertical tree) but still very difficult to notice.
In the area that this map covers you can expect a variety of the available species to be taken. First and foremost is the rainbow trout, followed by the Dolly's in the pads on good pre frontal days. Finally the silver salmon while their numbers are few, can be had on the 30' breakline. The salmon are a seasonal migrating fish and I simply haven't had the time to follow them over their migration in this body of water.
Weed condition pretty much lake wide is 12-14'. Some areas such as structures B & C have no or little weeds do to bottom conditions.
The other structure situation that I spoke of in my previous post that no one had mention with the northerns in the lake is area above the 40' hole with the wide, sloping bar. The 10' contour line shows that it IS there. This is another situation that I overlooked in my pre fishing map study. I was BADLY mistaken on that. With the fact that some sort of structure, in the way of "a wide sweeping bar in a natural lake" exist so close to sanctuary depth water, why have we all missed it. Or at least no one has said anything on here about it.
Water Color, Weed Lines, Bottem Conditions
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The Fisherman
Re: Water Color, Weed Lines, Bottem Conditions
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Re: Water Color, Weed Lines, Bottem Conditions
Fisherman,
First off, thank you for your service to our country. Second, I have been interested in your comments, you maps are great, and have given me some ideas to apply on my own water.
Terry
First off, thank you for your service to our country. Second, I have been interested in your comments, you maps are great, and have given me some ideas to apply on my own water.
Terry
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The Fisherman
Re: Water Color, Weed Lines, Bottem Conditions
Thank you very much. Those are kind words for someone you dont know and I appriciate it on both counts. I would not say that they are anything near great...heck looks like a little kid colored these but its fun during the cold months to work on your maps like that. Glad that something on here helped jog the 'ol brain. Enjoy your fishing.
Josh
Josh
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The Fisherman
Re: Water Color, Weed Lines, Bottem Conditions
OK guys, lets look at water color and how it affects lake/structure situations in turn affecting fish movements.
1. Clear to extra clear water. What type of bottom conditions are likely to be present?
-If water is light and/or dark yellow green? How deep would the weeds go?
-If water color was dingy and such that you lost visibility of your lure after 6"? Would it be likely that weeds would be present? If so how deep? What type body of water would you likely be looking at?
2. With weed condition relating to water color to a great degree, where would the likely location of the fish be on a good/marginal/bad movement?
-Into the weeds?
-On top of the weeds?
-At the base of the weedline?
-On the face of the weedline?
-Would the adult fish even move to the weeds? Which colors would support that kind of movement during the warm seasons?
3. With the water colors, depth of the weedlines and how weather and water conditions affect fish movements in mind; which water color situations would support adult fish movements to structure situations:
- at less than 10'? .
-10'-25'?
-25'+ only (if available)?
4. If faced with an extra clear water, it is unlikely that the fish will make movements ever shallower than 10'. With this in mind how would your principle guidelines be affected? ie: first three size spoonpluggs for contouring.
Note: If you were fishing in a lake where the entire body of water was shallow and weed covered with few clear/open areas then the situation changes quite a bit. This situation is covered in detail in vol. 4 "Home Study Course" pg.31.
1. Clear to extra clear water. What type of bottom conditions are likely to be present?
-If water is light and/or dark yellow green? How deep would the weeds go?
-If water color was dingy and such that you lost visibility of your lure after 6"? Would it be likely that weeds would be present? If so how deep? What type body of water would you likely be looking at?
2. With weed condition relating to water color to a great degree, where would the likely location of the fish be on a good/marginal/bad movement?
-Into the weeds?
-On top of the weeds?
-At the base of the weedline?
-On the face of the weedline?
-Would the adult fish even move to the weeds? Which colors would support that kind of movement during the warm seasons?
3. With the water colors, depth of the weedlines and how weather and water conditions affect fish movements in mind; which water color situations would support adult fish movements to structure situations:
- at less than 10'? .
-10'-25'?
-25'+ only (if available)?
4. If faced with an extra clear water, it is unlikely that the fish will make movements ever shallower than 10'. With this in mind how would your principle guidelines be affected? ie: first three size spoonpluggs for contouring.
Note: If you were fishing in a lake where the entire body of water was shallow and weed covered with few clear/open areas then the situation changes quite a bit. This situation is covered in detail in vol. 4 "Home Study Course" pg.31.
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The Fisherman
Re: Water Color, Weed Lines, Bottem Conditions
No one interested? Thought that this one might get some talk going. Especially with all the different combinations that could be produced with the questions.
Joshua Douglas Travis
Joshua Douglas Travis
Re: Water Color, Weed Lines, Bottem Conditions
-Which parts of the structure and where in the migration routes do you expect to find the fish on a good day during:
a. pre-spawn - i would say near the spawning areas along the weedlines, checking both inside and outside the weeds - call it 8-10ft
b. spawn - map gives this a way
c. post-spawn - deeper contact points and breaklines, 20+
d. warmer/summer months - the 10-14 ft contact points and up to the weedline (8?)
e. fall conditions - back to the deep contact points
f. if you were going to drill a hole to ice fish - i'd be tempted to drop bait at 30ft at the real steep area by the island, otherwise the 2 deep contact points around 26'.
a. pre-spawn - i would say near the spawning areas along the weedlines, checking both inside and outside the weeds - call it 8-10ft
b. spawn - map gives this a way
c. post-spawn - deeper contact points and breaklines, 20+
d. warmer/summer months - the 10-14 ft contact points and up to the weedline (8?)
e. fall conditions - back to the deep contact points
f. if you were going to drill a hole to ice fish - i'd be tempted to drop bait at 30ft at the real steep area by the island, otherwise the 2 deep contact points around 26'.
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The Fisherman
Re: Water Color, Weed Lines, Bottem Conditions
Good answers Brett, and thanks for being involved here.
The only other area that I would check and fish slightly differently is the saddle situation between the long point and the island. The rainbows act quite silly and with good weather and water conditions during the summer will move up to the 6-7' weed covered saddle. Now obviously they are scattered out here due to water depth(less than 8-10). This species of fish threw me for a loop when I first got to AK. I do remember fishing them for a while and ALL the BIG rainbows came from weeds. And what was killing me is that I couldn't catch them at home. So I called Mr. Bales to see what gives with these stinking rainbow trout. Well after his answer I felt kinda stupid but glad I asked. If the fish are in the shallows or in the weeds why are you trying to catch them on deeper structure. They are not there, they are on the other structures that your catching them on! He has a way of just charming people. Now I wanted to know why they were there and not using the cleaner structures in the lake that ARE available. Well it seems the best answer for now is because they act like blue gill or perch. So I left it alone, but they still use structure, its just nasty and covered with weeds. The coho on the other hand are deeper and on the harder or at least cleaner areas. For the rainbows that move up to the top of the saddle, either easing along with the electric motor and casting crappie jigs, or trolling with electric motor with anything that is small enough. The biggest key when doing this procedure is that you make sure that the jigs, spoons, spinners, live bait, whatever just barely bumps the top of the weeds, if not no fish, its just like the bottom. I have not caught any of these fish on spoonplugs that shallow. Namely because the weeds are two erratic and its just a pain so I just go to lighter gear that shallow, normally a crappie jig.(on this particular structure) plus its a ball when you have 3-4 people in the boat trolling like that and everyone hooks up with a twenty inch rainbow. SO that's the only thing I would make sure I did that you didn't mention. But the guidelines would have brought you to that anyway by straining the shallows.
Have a good one.
Josh
The only other area that I would check and fish slightly differently is the saddle situation between the long point and the island. The rainbows act quite silly and with good weather and water conditions during the summer will move up to the 6-7' weed covered saddle. Now obviously they are scattered out here due to water depth(less than 8-10). This species of fish threw me for a loop when I first got to AK. I do remember fishing them for a while and ALL the BIG rainbows came from weeds. And what was killing me is that I couldn't catch them at home. So I called Mr. Bales to see what gives with these stinking rainbow trout. Well after his answer I felt kinda stupid but glad I asked. If the fish are in the shallows or in the weeds why are you trying to catch them on deeper structure. They are not there, they are on the other structures that your catching them on! He has a way of just charming people. Now I wanted to know why they were there and not using the cleaner structures in the lake that ARE available. Well it seems the best answer for now is because they act like blue gill or perch. So I left it alone, but they still use structure, its just nasty and covered with weeds. The coho on the other hand are deeper and on the harder or at least cleaner areas. For the rainbows that move up to the top of the saddle, either easing along with the electric motor and casting crappie jigs, or trolling with electric motor with anything that is small enough. The biggest key when doing this procedure is that you make sure that the jigs, spoons, spinners, live bait, whatever just barely bumps the top of the weeds, if not no fish, its just like the bottom. I have not caught any of these fish on spoonplugs that shallow. Namely because the weeds are two erratic and its just a pain so I just go to lighter gear that shallow, normally a crappie jig.(on this particular structure) plus its a ball when you have 3-4 people in the boat trolling like that and everyone hooks up with a twenty inch rainbow. SO that's the only thing I would make sure I did that you didn't mention. But the guidelines would have brought you to that anyway by straining the shallows.
Have a good one.
Josh
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The Fisherman
Re: Water Color, Weed Lines, Bottem Conditions
Sorry Brett one more thing,
With the discussion of contact points. There are only in my opinion usually different contact points on any particular structure. This is because if it is a productive structure, it in most cases goes all the way from the home of the fish to the shallow water. So with this in mind just wandering what your definition of a contact point is and do you have an opinion on why a structure has potentially more than one? We all know the book answer but...based on weather and water conditions you may have fish NOT go home and then you must interpret where they have or will stop and that becomes a "good weather or stable weather contact point" in my opinion again the break that occurs into the deepest water in the area is the CONTACT POINT, that's what the book says. But If the fish are using something shallower, or deeper you must be able to interpret that and really must mark it on your map so that next time it is simply a matter of ****shoreline sightings **** and going at 'em.
Josh
With the discussion of contact points. There are only in my opinion usually different contact points on any particular structure. This is because if it is a productive structure, it in most cases goes all the way from the home of the fish to the shallow water. So with this in mind just wandering what your definition of a contact point is and do you have an opinion on why a structure has potentially more than one? We all know the book answer but...based on weather and water conditions you may have fish NOT go home and then you must interpret where they have or will stop and that becomes a "good weather or stable weather contact point" in my opinion again the break that occurs into the deepest water in the area is the CONTACT POINT, that's what the book says. But If the fish are using something shallower, or deeper you must be able to interpret that and really must mark it on your map so that next time it is simply a matter of ****shoreline sightings **** and going at 'em.
Josh
Re: Water Color, Weed Lines, Bottem Conditions
okay, let's try this one..
1. Clear to extra clear water. What type of bottom conditions are likely to be present?
multiple bottom conditions, rock/sand/weed/muck. weed line starting around 5' and running out up to 15-20', depending on the seasonal weather
-If water is light and/or dark yellow green? How deep would the weeds go?
possible more hard bottom than the clear water and a shallower weed line.
-If water color was dingy and such that you lost visibility of your lure after 6"? Would it be likely that weeds would be present? If so how deep? What type body of water would you likely be looking at?
lots of hard bottom eventually getting soft, few to no weeds but weeds no deeper than 6ish. Type?? flowage or reservoir but i've also seen natural lake
2. With weed condition relating to water color to a great degree, where would the likely location of the fish be on a good/marginal/bad movement?
-Into the weeds? good
-On top of the weeds? great
-At the base of the weedline? marginal/bad
-On the face of the weedline? good/marginal
-Would the adult fish even move to the weeds? sure
- Which colors would support that kind of movement during the warm seasons? better the color better the odds
3. With the water colors, depth of the weedlines and how weather and water conditions affect fish movements in mind; which water color situations would support adult fish movements to structure situations:
- at less than 10'? . white sandy, red sandy, yellow green
-10'-25'? yellow green, brown cypress, clear
-25'+ only (if available)? extra clear
4. If faced with an extra clear water, it is unlikely that the fish will make movements ever shallower than 10'. With this in mind how would your principle guidelines be affected? ie: first three size spoonpluggs for contouring. ha ha, i know a few of my teachers will hate this answer but I'm skipping 'em. just being honest.
1. Clear to extra clear water. What type of bottom conditions are likely to be present?
multiple bottom conditions, rock/sand/weed/muck. weed line starting around 5' and running out up to 15-20', depending on the seasonal weather
-If water is light and/or dark yellow green? How deep would the weeds go?
possible more hard bottom than the clear water and a shallower weed line.
-If water color was dingy and such that you lost visibility of your lure after 6"? Would it be likely that weeds would be present? If so how deep? What type body of water would you likely be looking at?
lots of hard bottom eventually getting soft, few to no weeds but weeds no deeper than 6ish. Type?? flowage or reservoir but i've also seen natural lake
2. With weed condition relating to water color to a great degree, where would the likely location of the fish be on a good/marginal/bad movement?
-Into the weeds? good
-On top of the weeds? great
-At the base of the weedline? marginal/bad
-On the face of the weedline? good/marginal
-Would the adult fish even move to the weeds? sure
- Which colors would support that kind of movement during the warm seasons? better the color better the odds
3. With the water colors, depth of the weedlines and how weather and water conditions affect fish movements in mind; which water color situations would support adult fish movements to structure situations:
- at less than 10'? . white sandy, red sandy, yellow green
-10'-25'? yellow green, brown cypress, clear
-25'+ only (if available)? extra clear
4. If faced with an extra clear water, it is unlikely that the fish will make movements ever shallower than 10'. With this in mind how would your principle guidelines be affected? ie: first three size spoonpluggs for contouring. ha ha, i know a few of my teachers will hate this answer but I'm skipping 'em. just being honest.
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The Fisherman
Re: Water Color, Weed Lines, Bottem Conditions
Brett,
Thanks for being involved in this, I love this stuff and not sure why it seems there are really only three people that post in 101 but obviously more read it.
So for your answers:
1. Clear to extra clear water. What type of bottom conditions are likely to be present?
multiple bottom conditions, rock/sand/weed/muck. weed line starting around 5' and running out up to 15-20', depending on the seasonal weather
*I can't say your wrong at all here, it is another situation that you just have to "check out" your weed line thoughts are spot on in my opinion.*
-If water is light and/or dark yellow green? How deep would the weeds go?
possible more hard bottom than the clear water and a shallower weed line.
*Something that I have noticed is that the geographic location will play a part in what type bottom exists with certain type water color. Warmer = more soft(sometimes) colder= more hard(sometimes)
*But there are a LOT of yellow green lakes with a muck bottom, if I remember correctly Mr. Bales fishes a lake with a dark yellow green and a muck bottom after 4' in his newest video. Yet in some reservoirs you can have an extra clear to clear with hard bottom all the way. Granted thats kinda apples to oranges and the reservoirs are highland or canyon type.*
As for the dingy or dirty waters I would say your looking at a reservoir most of the time. Although dependent on runoff you can very well see in in a natural lake. Weeds, the only reservoirs I've fished with any weed condition were smaller watersheds and obviously shallow, yet still weeds can be present in dark or dingy water and I believe your "6ish" is spot on.
Everything else you replied was good as I would figure.
Although you didn't answer the last question? there is an affect on your procedures when fishing in waters very deep. Take for instance what Mr. Perry said about fishing the great lakes: " the first three size spoonpluggs can pretty much be disposed of " now that doesn't mean don't use them in the shallows. We must strain the water to eliminate. So with that in mind, I still use the first three sizes to eliminate the shallow water ON STRUCTURE. once this is complete You simply move deeper ON STRUCTURE. Now that is certainly easier said than done but electronics are a great aid in finding breaklines past 15' the just aren't worth anything for contour trolling the bottom or weedline, although in DEEP water they can be used to parallel a long breakline. So really the answer is: If you are comfortable fishing DEEP and have previously located structure on a particular body of water then you would still have to fish from the shallows to the deep and in between to effectively know where the fish are or are not. So you STILL use Spoonplugger Guidelines and they as always will lead you to the fish. Once you find the fish, say in the deep, so deep that you cant reach with spoonpluggs then jig it. But you are still taking the same approach as if you were fishing a milky with 30' of water. The guidelines work everywhere, if you don't believe me then look at all the other guys that have also been lucky enough to fish all over the country in all waters salt or fresh.
Have a good one Brett,
Josh
Thanks for being involved in this, I love this stuff and not sure why it seems there are really only three people that post in 101 but obviously more read it.
So for your answers:
1. Clear to extra clear water. What type of bottom conditions are likely to be present?
multiple bottom conditions, rock/sand/weed/muck. weed line starting around 5' and running out up to 15-20', depending on the seasonal weather
*I can't say your wrong at all here, it is another situation that you just have to "check out" your weed line thoughts are spot on in my opinion.*
-If water is light and/or dark yellow green? How deep would the weeds go?
possible more hard bottom than the clear water and a shallower weed line.
*Something that I have noticed is that the geographic location will play a part in what type bottom exists with certain type water color. Warmer = more soft(sometimes) colder= more hard(sometimes)
*But there are a LOT of yellow green lakes with a muck bottom, if I remember correctly Mr. Bales fishes a lake with a dark yellow green and a muck bottom after 4' in his newest video. Yet in some reservoirs you can have an extra clear to clear with hard bottom all the way. Granted thats kinda apples to oranges and the reservoirs are highland or canyon type.*
As for the dingy or dirty waters I would say your looking at a reservoir most of the time. Although dependent on runoff you can very well see in in a natural lake. Weeds, the only reservoirs I've fished with any weed condition were smaller watersheds and obviously shallow, yet still weeds can be present in dark or dingy water and I believe your "6ish" is spot on.
Everything else you replied was good as I would figure.
Although you didn't answer the last question? there is an affect on your procedures when fishing in waters very deep. Take for instance what Mr. Perry said about fishing the great lakes: " the first three size spoonpluggs can pretty much be disposed of " now that doesn't mean don't use them in the shallows. We must strain the water to eliminate. So with that in mind, I still use the first three sizes to eliminate the shallow water ON STRUCTURE. once this is complete You simply move deeper ON STRUCTURE. Now that is certainly easier said than done but electronics are a great aid in finding breaklines past 15' the just aren't worth anything for contour trolling the bottom or weedline, although in DEEP water they can be used to parallel a long breakline. So really the answer is: If you are comfortable fishing DEEP and have previously located structure on a particular body of water then you would still have to fish from the shallows to the deep and in between to effectively know where the fish are or are not. So you STILL use Spoonplugger Guidelines and they as always will lead you to the fish. Once you find the fish, say in the deep, so deep that you cant reach with spoonpluggs then jig it. But you are still taking the same approach as if you were fishing a milky with 30' of water. The guidelines work everywhere, if you don't believe me then look at all the other guys that have also been lucky enough to fish all over the country in all waters salt or fresh.
Have a good one Brett,
Josh
Re: Water Color, Weed Lines, Bottem Conditions
I love these posts, thanks for putting us to the test. I should clarify my last answer - I just meant that in extra clear water I've been known to skip the first 3 sizes. I'll put the 500 on to start most days, but on extra clear water I'm skipping a few steps. Not saying it's right. In fact, on occasion I've gone back on a structure where I had at first skipped a couple sizes and reworked it from the shallows and learned a few things. I've found that every size, 500 and up, will typically tell me something about the structure.
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The Fisherman
Re: Water Color, Weed Lines, Bottem Conditions
Well I'm glad you enjoy them Brett, I do as well, even when I'm posting stuff, there is always something that seems to come up and put me in the books or just plain dwelling on something if I'm not sure about it. As for what you were saying about the extra clear and skipping. I hope I didn't come across as saying that you were wrong, that is certainly not what I meant. This next statement will I'm sure pee in someones Wheaties. Once I've personally worked out body of water and know the structure situations and contact points for different weather and water conditions, I have a really bad habit of starting my fishing at the contact point. This has I'm sure cost me some fish in the shallows. Yet knowing what we do and the basic movements of fish, it is not a stretch to go strait to the place where the BIG BOYS are gonna be IF they move. So I check there first being that the largest fish in the school will not move as shallow and they are not as likely to stay as long. Gotta make hay while the sun still shines right. After checking there I most certainly move to eliminating water. As far as I am really concerned you don't HAVE to contour troll the shallows(after your mapping and interpretation), but you have to be willing to accept that you will miss fish if you do not thoroughly work the shallows, that's why we contour troll, and for mapping. Mr. Perry said himself that " lucky is the man to find the fish up and moving when he first takes a stab at a piece of structure" So with that in mind I just hit the most likely spot for the Mommas in the school. I'm certainly not saying that on a new or less worked structure that I would try to do that because you will in most cases find yourself lost and wasting time. So the guidelines will ALWAYS put you on fish! You cant fail in the long run, I just like getting the icing off my cake then if I'm still hungry ill eat the cake itself. Remember too that Mr. Perry told us that the guidelines are just that, GUIDELINES. He knew more than we ever dreamed of reading in a book, so it only goes to reason that the guidelines are just what they say, basic fishing facts. Live by them, and grow. The day we stop trying to learn is the day we start down hill. Those aren't my words brother.
Have a good one and put some fish in the boat for me!
Joshua Douglas Travis
Have a good one and put some fish in the boat for me!
Joshua Douglas Travis