Large Flat

[spoonpluggergino]

One For John Bales

This is bothering for along time. I have been catching muskie in the weeds north end of one of our lakes, good size muskie up to 45 inches. From the deep hole to the edge of the weeds it is over 4000 feet. I went over the flats dragging a spoonplug to see if the bottom is different. I can only find dirt no rocks,gravel or glay. The bottom appears to be clean until you get around 7 to 8 feet than weeds start showing. I do not see a break, the bottom slopes very gradualy in to deep water. Mr Perry says fish do not cross a flat. I am missing something. It is not a lack of reading due to I have read the spoonplug bible many times, and trying to absorb what Mr Perry said. Note Muskie caught in this area all caught on tipical muskie baits casting, nothing on the troll
I am inserting a parial drawing of the lake

spoonpluggergino

[John Bales]

Hi Geno, I have your buddies ready to ship. I have a student tomorrow and might not get them in the mail till Monday. Don't take this wrong but it sounds like you have done a lot of casting over the years. Someone has mislead the general public to believe that casting is the way to go to catch the musky. Here is where the major problem exists. A great spoonplugger becomes a good troller first. By becoming a good troller, all things that are important fall into place. Interpretation of bottom conditions, weather and water and exactly what role they play in the movements of the fish. (ALL FISH)...... Interpretation of structure situations and everything you need to know to make you a good fisherman is learned by trolling. It tells you when to cast, where to cast, what to cast, why to cast and how to cast. What ever the situation is, you will know what to do once you hit the fish on the troll. Trolling is our teacher and it is the only way to obtain all of the answers.
Musky's, walleye, white bass, northerns are migratory fish. They will cross a flat on their movements and migrations. A bass will not. You want the musky's, stick with the troll and forget the cast unless the fish are shallow like during the spawn and at times in the fall in some places. That period of the year is of short duration and then you don't need to carry it with you the rest of the year. A big musky may not make it back to the shallows the rest of the year once they are done spawning. Mr. Perry said that and I have used that statement to guide me for most of the season and most all of the waters that contain the musky. The musky is a great follower. The troll is deadly for that exact reason. Sure, it is exciting to figure 8 one when he follows and get him to take but you catch your one fish casting in three days of casting those giant lures and I'll take my several fish a day trolling any time. And you are 65 years old and casting those huge lures all day? Give yourself a break Gino, take up trolling for a living. You will end up catching ten times more fish and get the biggest ones too. You will also end up learning quite a lot more. Denny Coulardot has over 50 musky's so far this year and he only fishes the lakes around here which are not that great compared to some around the country. Good Luck......... John

[spoonpluggergino]

Thanks John
You hit it right on the nail. I am 65 and I want to catch more muskie on the troll. I had an inclination about muskie moving around a lot. There have been numerous study on muskie equiped with a transmitter and they wil travel a very long distance each day. One of the problem I have is that I really do not get to fish very much, but this it has been changing. Fishing it is not much different than golfing,bowling etc. More time on the water will eventually get us better, providing spoonplugging guidelines are practiced. This particular lake that I am fishing has lots of good muskie up and over 50 inch, one of the problem I am encountering it has been hard to the interpratation of the existing structure. Most of the break line to the drop off is very shallow anywere from 7.5 to 8 feet than drops down to 17 18 feet. The water color it is not very good, on the clear side, but that is all I have. A very good friend suggested I should start to anchor on fishing water and start casting to deep structure to accomplish different depth and speed control versus trolling.

One of the reasons I ordered your blade baits is to do casting to deep structure. I am challenging myself to catch more muskie on the troll, beside casting the weeds
Another reason is that I also belong to a muskie club, and I really get sick and tired hearing how certain color and baits catch muskie, or guys trolling suspended baits with 6 rods over the side of the boat. Give me a break. I need to go fishing more often

spoonpluggergino

PS Dont worry about the baits I have enough baits to start a tacle shop, beside this coming week I have to much work to do

[Fran Myers]

Hi Gino,
You know it's funny. Your situation is similar to one that I have. There is a little lake that I fish that has muskies in it.
Great water color (well less than 6"), good depth - sections over 45', and it gets stocked with muskies frequently.

In doing my research of the contour maps I selected 3 areas that I wanted to concentrate on. Most of those were fishless. After about an hour I caught a 23" walleye. While expanding my area around the areas I chose - quite far away from where I would have thought, I hooked a musky. I was using a 250 in about 9 feet of water. While the musky wasn't that big, it did throw the the 250 back at me in about 2 minutes.

After checking the line and the hooks I proceeded to troll back and forth across the same area. Each of the next 4 passes had another musky take the 250. All of which I lost. I lost two while trying to dip them out with a net and the hooks got straightend out. After the last one I nearly threw my rod in the lake.

Now you discuss not knowing why the fish were there. I have to admit that I have the same questions about my situation. While the bottom is very soft I was able to use 250's to 800's to map the area and other than a turn in the weed line, I can't find anything else. Nothing.
When I showed John the map of the lake, he marked it for me and none of the spots he directed me to were one of the ones with the fish.
Sometimes we just have to accept the fish will be where they want to be and not where we want them to be because we can't see what they do.

However, I do believe that whatever the musky were following - the bend in the weed line acted as a break which caused the fish to stop or pause there for something. I have no doubts that anybody casting in this spot at the right time would be wildly lucky on that day. In fact I watched a National Fishing Show go to there "Secret Lake" and catch a 50+" fish from this spot (saw a familar pontoon boat in the background). So I know that there are some big fish around.

I don't know what draws fish to your spot but knowing you got them there is certainly a big help and you may never know what is the actual path. Heck they may just be following the weed line and are pausing at the bend in weeds. I stopped being frustrated when I just accepted that the musky was at that area without knowing why.

[spoonpluggergino]

Hello Fran

Great job on your report on Lake Erie spring outing. One thing that I am really trying to do is spend more time on the water. I do try to do things by the book, it is like anything you have to put the time in before you can get better on what we do. This year I am going to anchor and cast known spots that have potential of a contact point. For some reason I do okay in the fall trolling deep break lines on the Madison Chain. Last year I started fishing The Chain O Lakes. Structure on these lakes does not jump out at you like the Madison Chain. John Bales really drove the point home, I must do more trolling and keep on learning what is down stairs, I have to get tuned to the bottom condition and uncover the subtle breaks. The ultimate thing to do, stay with something that works until I start to catch muskie on the troll, let the fish tell me where they are. On good days I have no problem finding them in the weeds, but that is a low percentage, I need to do better. All I know is I am a very committed individual and I never give up, the job will get done. The desire is there but unfortunately when you own a business and I have responsability to keep my guys busy especially now it is pretty tough. There are days when I could go fishing and something happens than that takes out all the enthusiasm to go fishing. I hope to retire soon
Thanks to every one for your response. This is a great website and spoonpluggers are a great bunch of fisherman


Gino

[spnplgrkenny]

HEY GINO, YOU REALLY SEEM TO HAVE A GREAT ATTITUDE, AND A STRONG DESIRE TO LEARN. THE ONLY THING THAT WILL DEFEAT A GOOD SPOONPLUGGER IS TIME SPENT ON THE WATER. I HAVE BEEN VERY BLESSED TO HAVE A JOB THAT ALLOWED ME TO SPEND ALOT OF HOURS FISHING DURING THE WEEK. THAT WAY I SOMEWHAT BEAT THE CROWDS AND THERE ALWAYS SEEMS TO BE SOME CURRENT, WHICH IS VERY IMPORTANT IN MY HOME LAKE.

AS FAR AS THE CASTING VERSUS TROLLING THING GOES, IF I AM FISHING A SRUCTURE THAT I HAVE NEVER FISHED BEFORE, I LEARN MORE IN ONE DAY TROLLING THE STRUCTURE THAN I COULD CASTING IT FOR A MONTH. TROLLING TELLS YOU EVERYTHING ABOUT THAT STUCTURE. DONT GET ME WRONG. I REALLY ENJOY CASTING ONCE I LOCATE A SCHOOL OF FISH, TROLLING. THAT IS AN AWESOME FEELING.

GREAT SKILL TO YOU ALWAYS GINO, KENNY

[spoonpluggergino]

Kenny Thanks for words of encouragement. I realize that I have to spent more time on the water. In the past due to I do not get to fish very much, I was taking short cuts, like not mapping. I was trying to keep things in my had but it does not work, you have to put it on paper. Jim Duplex does not give me any slack, sometime I do not like what I hear,but he has a ponit.
Like I mentioned before spoonpluggers are a great bunch of people, they are allways willing to help others. We are lucky to have so many talented spoonpluggers to put guys like me on the right path

Gino Testone

[spnplgrkenny]

HEY GINO, THE MAIN MAN THAT I OWE MY CREDIT TO IS OF COURSE MR. PERRY, BUT THE MAN IN CHATTANOOGA THAT TAUGHT ME DIRECTLY WAS MR. FRANK HAMILL. HE IS AN ABSOLUTELY AWESOME TEACHER, HOWEVER IN MY BEGINNING YEARS HE COULD AT TIMES BE VERY BRUTAL IN HIS CRITICISM. IT SOMETIMES HURT MY FEELINGS A LITTLE, BUT NOW I REALIZE IT WAS FOR MY OWN GOOD. HE IS SUCH A GREAT MOTIVATOR. HE ALWAYS MADE ME TRY TO FEEL SPECIAL, EVEN THOUGH I DIDN'T HAVE MUCH CONFIDENCE IN MY ABILITY. THE GLASS IS ALWAYS HALF FULL TO MR. HAMILL. HE DOESN'T KNOW WHAT THE WORD DEFEAT MEANS. NO MATTER HOW TOUGH A DAY WE HAD ON A TRIP, AFTER OUR END OF THE DAY ASSESSMENT, HE WOULD HAVE ME SO MOTIVATED ABOUT TOMORROW, I WANTED TO GET BACK OUT THERE AT THAT MOMENT.

SINCE MR. HAMILL HAS RETIRED AND MOVED TO FLORIDA, MR. WAYNE ALFORD NOW TEACHES US ONCE A MONTH. HE IS ALSO AN INCREDIBLE SPOONPLUGGING TEACHER IN WHICH I OWE A HUGE AMOUNT OF MY SUCCESS TO . WAYNE HAS TAUGHT ME MANY THINGS THAT HAS MADE MY FISHING DAYS MUCH MORE SUCCESSFUL. I CAN'T STRESS THE IMPORTANCE OF BEING PART OF A SPOONPLUGGING CLUB, IF AT ALL POSSIBLE. I LOOK FORWARD TO OUR MONTHLY MEETINGS.

AND ANYONE THAT KNOWS ME, KNOWS HOW I FEEL ABOUT MR. JOHN BALES. JOHN IS ALSO A GREAT MOTIVATOR, A GREAT TEACHER, AND HAS GREAT KNOWLEDGE OF MR. PERRY'S TEACHINGS. EVERY TIME JOHN AND I SPEAK BY PHONE, HE ALWAYS GIVE ME A SPOONPLUGGING SITUATION TO THINK ABOUT. I LOVE THE FACT THAT JOHN BROUGHT UP ONCE AGAIN, HAVING A JAMBOREE IN A CENTRAL LOCATION. NETWORKING WITH OTHER GREAT SPOONPUGGERS KEEPS US ALL HUNGRY FOR MORE GREAT INFORMATION. I THINK NETWORKING IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR THIS SECOND TO NONE KNOWLEDGE. AS STATED MANY TIMES BEFORE, SPOONPLUGGERS AND THEIR FAMILIES ARE THE BEST PEOPLE I HAVE EVER MET.

KENNY

[whopper Stopper]

Hey guys, just reading your thread. Dont know muskies, but John hit the nail on the head about trolling. It is the ONLY way that I can understand what is going on in REAL TIME so to speak. It is the only true teacher that we have. It is the culprit for Depth and Speed CONTROL. As far as flats are concerned, I thought that the LM bass would only not cross a flat "VOID OF ANY BREAKS" or sign posts, so to speak. A flat could be an incline and still be flat, right? But once you have breaks as "sign posts"? These could be in the form of rocks, stumps etc. Iv asked myself the same question where I have caught some good sized LM bass before, only to view a big flat area during a lake draw down. However this area did had many short stumps and some small rocks that were left during the lakes construction that served as" breaks". Just my thoughts.

W/S

[Fran Myers]

Hey guys, just reading your thread. Dont know muskies, but John hit the nail on the head about trolling. It is the ONLY way that I can understand what is going on in REAL TIME so to speak. It is the only true teacher that we have. It is the culprit for Depth and Speed CONTROL. As far as flats are concerned, I thought that the LM bass would only not cross a flat "VOID OF ANY BREAKS" or sign posts, so to speak. A flat could be an incline and still be flat, right? But once you have breaks as "sign posts"? These could be in the form of rocks, stumps etc. Iv asked myself the same question where I have caught some good sized LM bass before, only to view a big flat area during a lake draw down. However this area did had many short stumps and some small rocks that were left during the lakes construction that served as" breaks". Just my thoughts.

W/S

W/S,
As my experience grows I am constantly aware that while I am "Lucky" some times, fish are not always where I think they should be. What we think is a flat, open expanse of nothing may actually have something the fish see that I don't. I have been lucky enough to be around the Instructors over the past years and all of them have stories that include the statement "We catch the heck out of them here. I am not sure how they get here but we never pass this spot".

Flats can be angled. They can be vertical. I have found myself in situations where the only "break" in the area is a bend in the weedline.
I would never had spent any time at this spot had I not caught a fish there. I didn't know "Why" the fish were there but I knew we weren't leaving until I figured it out. All I found was the turn.

Something that I have had my eyes opened to this year is just how far Bass will migrate. I am used to Walleye's moving a LONG way. Over 100 miles. When I think of Bass I usually think within 100-200 yards. But last year I found out that in rivers and Great Lakes (Erie,..) they move a long ways.

This year while preparing for the Chicago Seminar I found that Largemouth migrate much farther than I ever thought. I never knew that Bass move "MILES" and will do so quickly depending on weather and water. I really learned something this year. I also learned that by knowing the structures like we do, Keeping in the fish shouldn't be too hard unless the water is covered with ice.

Below is a side feeder creek. I put two possible paths for the fish. The length of the longest line is two miles. The start of the line on the right side of the picture is the main channel in the reservoir. There are breaklines, and shallower channels all the way to the western end. With all the the turns and things the fish could easily go 5 miles one way. Most of our lakes are smaller than this one section. Please note I didn't randomly select this picture. While the lines aren't exact I've seen the contour map for the same feeder creek.

Depths go from over 60 feet at the main channel to pretty shallow flats to the north and west. A good Spoonplugger can follow the fish every step of the way. And believe me there are 15 pounders caught in this water.

Anyway that is my example of fish not doing what I think they should do. I think Buck wrote all the books as a basic, first step. As our experiences grow our understanding of the written materials changes. This is why we have to reread as we expand our experiences.

[spnplgrkenny]

HEY FRAN, THANKS FOR THE DRAWING. SEEMS AS IF I HAVE SEEN THIS FEEDER CREEK BEFORE,HA HA. THAT IS DALLAS BAY.

[DouglasBush]

well well well....
I can see you guys are still at it...and what a pleasure it is to read true facts about fishing instead of the typical "I used this pattern" BS that shows up on local fishing forums.
I am still at it also, but due to job restrictions (yep, unlike the rich democrat John Bales, I still have to work) I havent been on the water in the boat since March.
In fact, I noticed big cobwebs on it. I'm almost afraid to put the water hose on it and try to start it for fear of "something wrong".
Have spent the summer on small creeks located, of all places, right here in the city with nothing but an ultralight, 4 pound line, and a small container of little jigs. Catching nothing but bluegill and the occasional small bass. With a pair of cheap hip high waders I cover a lot of water and never see a soul. Not very scientific, but for sure very relaxing and I always seem to come home with at least 20.
I just don't seem to have that fire in the belly anymore to get out there and fight those waves and bass pros on the big lakes. So, I vicariously live off the activities of other spoonpluggers.
Health is still good, I still drive that bus (retirement job) for that "old folks home" 5 1/2 days a week and the annual DMV check for my CDL renewal makes sure the BP stays at 120/80, although the belly still shows about 15 pounds from too much eating.
Had my 72nd birthday on November 19 and still enjoying life.
Thats enough of my ramblings for now...oh yes, Mister Bales sir.....here is a great big smoochie for Deborah. As always, YOU, get zero!
Regards and stay happy.
Douglas