Weather and water volume four page 16

[John Bales]

"Let us imagine what would happen if a volume of water did not stop getting heavier as it cooled below 40 degrees F (approx). If water continued to get heavier and sink below this temp, then the coldest water would go the bottom and the freezing process would start at the bottom. Pretty soon our water would be solid and we would have only a few inches, or a few feet, of liquid in the hot part of the season. The transfer of heat would no longer be controlled by convection currents as described above, but would have to be warmed by conduction, and this would be a slow process. Just why water does this rather unique thing is cause for wonder, because if it did not- few things would be alive, human or otherwise."
Mr. Perry elaborated a bit on this subject and a little on the thermocline. He mentions that when the water is cooling and when it is warming that we should control our fishing seasonally but not much more is mentioned. He gave us guidelines that if we follow them, we have a good chance at some pretty good success in putting a fish in the boat. Never did he elaborate on any subject that would create too much thought or confusion to the fisherman. He knew that human nature would never allow but a few to have the desire and discipline on themselves to learn this. The fact that water conditions change throughout the seasons, and the fish adapt in ways that you and I can understand those changes and adapt to them ourselves. Our controls of Depth and Speed will normally take care of those changes but if Mr. Perry took the time to mention that during some of these changes in warming and cooling of the water that we should adjust our fishing during these changes, learning how fish make locational changes related to a thermocline should be taken into consideration also. The technology is out there to see not only the thermocline but also how the fish may be related to it. Here is some interesting facts to read, especially page 3. I want to thank Jim Duplex for formatting this for me to share. John

[John Bales]

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[Hal Standish]

Thank you JB, Do you back just a couple a years ago I said some thing like this to you. JB I think I running my lures under the fish I'm to deep. I mean way to deep. I have many multiple fish day of late by shortening up line lengths on the 700 or lengthening line lengths on the 100 and 200. Running the smaller lures on wire has put me in the strike zone so to speak and running the 700 and 800 on 50-70 ft has been effective as well.
I was on Portage lake ( the reason I bring this up is that JB knows Portage lake) walking the bottom with 3 different Spoonplugs ( 200,100,700 using braid or wire) no fish! shorten line appropriately and started making contact. although there is flow of water through Portage there was some evidence of thermocline present on the sonar. Do I have a clue or am I on just on good drugs?

Hal

[John Bales]

Hal, You have success, no drugs needed. Those success highs are better than drugs and longer lasting. Go back to portage in late October and some of those smallies that are in the river now will head out into the lake to winter. Just like where Chuck and I fished with you . You could have some fun with them. Chuck is heading up tomorrow for two night fishing days in a row. Hope to have a report. Hope to survive it. John

[Scott Duff]

John, Good post on the nature of water, tech, and always having more to learn. The other quote that jumps to mind is from Mr. Perry's "Greatest Words" speech (Intro to Depth and Speed video) regarding what he chose to put into his writings, and why he kept his material broad in nature: "I wasn't going to say something to a guy in one area, that might confuse a guy in another area. I had to put down what made a fish tick, and what you and I must do to catch him. And I couldn't take a specific area, or situation, and do this." (i.e. The TVA main lakes and our rivers don't get a thermocline, due to current, but a lot of reservoirs certainly do. And many areas of the country don't have natural lakes or weedy lakes, which normally get a thermocline.

A question I'm hearing in all this: How do we approach this more specific knowledge and its teaching/sharing/application without neglecting fundamentals that unlock the keys and guide our growth as fishermen?

[CHAMP]

It's very simple you stick to the basics. If you learn what each volume of the home study course is teaching you ,in them is the answer to all your fishing questions. But this is not easy it takes a strong desire on the fisherman's behalf. It makes no difference if a lake stratify 's or not the fishing procedure is the same. It's the same no matter where you are . that's the great thing about being a spoonplugger , no matter where I go I know how to catch fish where ever I'm at.
Volume 1- Introduction to Basic Movements
Volume 2- Controls & Tools
Volume 3- Structures, Breaks, Breaklines
Volume 4- Weather & Water
Volume 5- Presentation of Lures
Volume 6 - Lake Types
Volume 7- Part 1 - Mapping & Interpretation
Volume 7- Part 2 - Mapping & Interpretation
Volume 8 - Buck Talks - Summation, Mental Aspects, Examination
Volume 8 Mental Aspects DO YOU HAVE WHAT IT TAKES ?

[John Bales]

When there is something I do not know, or want to learn about anything, there is no limit on the amount of time I will spend on it. I want to know the answers to the questions. Some have too many variables to set things in stone but most anything can be learned with some effort. Effort will get you a lot of things. John

[CHAMP]

John
You seem to be of the opinion, that in the lakes you fish the thermocline causes the fish to change location. We know that fish are changing location all the time . Horizontally and vertically , deep to shallow and follow breaklines. Are you just talking about the bass large/small mouth or all fish in the lake. There are many reasons fish change location how can you be sure its because of a thermocline. All a thermocline is, at a depth of water were temperature changes more quickly , but it may be only 2-4 degrees in a span of about 5' of water , more or less. Fish being coldblooded they do not feel temperature.

[Scott Duff]

John said-"Our controls of Depth and Speed will normally take care of those changes but if Mr. Perry took the time to mention that during some of these changes in warming and cooling of the water that we should adjust our fishing during these changes, learning how fish make locational changes related to a thermocline should be taken into consideration also. The technology is out there to see not only the thermocline but also how the fish may be related to it."

Agreed, John! Here’s a situation related that makes me want to learn more…While not specifically the thermocline, a recent experience of the layering or "banding" of sonar returns led to a new feature on structure and fish caught on a day of limited movements. While this occurred shallow in dark water beyond any weeds, I have seen weed breakines have a similar effect (tall-short-deep fringe-different weed, etc). Here's what happened: While doing my normal fishing….Sonar consistently showed a solid mat of small baitfish 3'-5' over the entire mid and shallow depths, and spotty over the deep on all three connected lakes, for days. After a cold front they moved a cast deeper than the primary breakline…not far. Larger fish had been caught all shallower than 13'. When active, solid orange clouds of fish were seen at times in certain areas around 6'-7'. This day, no fish to speak of had been contacted checking the features, depths & speeds through Noon. By 1pm on the troll the screen changed: orange clouds like "rain curtains" appeared in two areas...and in one area they intersected with the bottom of the lake. A closer look using the flasher revealed a previously unnoticed feature...a 6.5'-7.0' breakline with firmer bottom (found shells too) that indeed intersected the heaviest orange “rain curtains”. (This was deeper than a better known 5'-6' breakine nearby.) I followed the breakline in this otherwise flatter area with the boat “drawing” a longer finger, 2 subtle broader bars on either side, and 4 inside turns formed by the 3 features. Using markers, contour trolling at a slow speed produced many fish and multiple species including pike and walleye. Anytime I strayed up onto the 6' flat or beyond 7' no fish were caught. AutoChart “mapping” did not suggest the feature, it appeared as a flat. All the action for the day was on a 6 inch breakline, first suggested on the sonar by the concentrated fish present intersecting a broader feature shown, and then pinpointed and mapped using the flasher and markers. This lake contains trophy size walleye and musky so seasonally this new spot found must be checked! Again, this could also be applied to weeds (both casting and trolling). Lots of words but hope relevant to share!

[John Bales]

I live in my own little fishing world. When I speak of what I do, it is in my lakes(natural), and anyone who's lakes are not like mine, I would understand how they may not get to see what I see or have a chance to understand our fishing conditions and how the fish relate to them. Any smart spoonplugger would begin their days fishing with a quick look out over a deeper section of water to see if a thermocline is set up and how the fish may be related to it(or not). Do you see any fish below it or are they all above it. Do you see any form of life below it? It takes just a few minutes to look at. For those who cannot interpret a structure situation, who have no idea how to make their passes for a structure they just mapped, what good what it do them to think about the thermocline? For those who have an interest in learning about it, I would suggest they spend some time setting up their units to visually see the difference between the density of where the two temperatures meet. Not only does it exist but the fish can use it as a breakline. Don Dixon called it an invisible breakline because his pre-historic units don't show it. I do not like to limit myself on the ability to learn. I have written on how to follow the thermocline down as the water starts to cool and follow the big bass and northerns deeper and deeper till the thermocline completely breaks up. I do it every year and use the depth of the thermocline as my guideline to find the fish. Some think it doesn't matter and I say good for them. I have no idea if fish feel temperature but I am almost sure that they need a certain degree of oxygen to survive. I am also pretty sure that if the temperature between the two layers of water is too great, the fish could not handle that quick change and would choose to stay above or below that change but if the lower level has no oxygen, that could be why we see them slightly into the upper level. Not sure that I said that the thermocline makes the fish change their location, just that it is a breakline and the fish relate to it, Usually slightly above it. And this is for all fish in the lake. Its not just an opinion of mine but more of the truth of what fish do in our natural lakes. You can fish below the thermocline where there are no fish all day long and never know it if you never know to look or try and understand it. Hal just talked about it in one of his posts about shortening up his line to run a little above it. Understanding that there is a thermocline and the fish may relate to it. Figuring out how to see it and how the fish are relating to it, just another part of the learning of what fish do and whay you and I can do to put him in the boat. Jerry Borst might agree with me on this. John

[CHAMP]

John I do know what you are saying ,but if I make these post it causes more discussion.
Saying that, I have never seen a thermocline set up in buckhorn res.
I have seen it in Jordan lake , kerr lake , and others but I have never seen it cause fish to leave a good structure and go search for something else. If we have a good break on structure at the thermocline depth , and weather and water conditions allow and I'm controlling my depth and speed BINGO MUCHO BASS.

[Mapper]

A question I'm hearing in all this: How do we approach this more specific knowledge and its teaching/sharing/application without neglecting fundamentals that unlock the keys and guide our growth as fishermen?

There once was a man who would go out fishing with nothing more than a couple of rods and a coffee can. Yet, that coffee can
contained the tools necessary to employ the two principals that would revolutionize the world of fishing as never before or since. These principals were known as Depth & Speed Control. If a fisherman had full command of them, along with the discipline to employ them on bottom structure in every fishing situation, he had little to worry about where thermocline was concerned. Not only did Buck Perry know this, but he instructed fishermen to adopt the same mindset.

[John Bales]

Walt, Come over some day and I will show you how it works. Then you will have something to look forward to. John

[phillip szafranski]

In the latest issue of the National Newsletter, Walt (mapper) wrote a great piece about how fellow Spoonpluggers adapt and apply Buck's teaching differently. No two Spoonpluggers are the same but you can learn something from each person. His logic certainly applies to this discussion point. The responses here clearly show the difference of opinion and perspective.

As Don Dickson once stated, the brilliance of Buck was to take the complexity of Spoonplugging and distill it down so others could understand and apply the knowledge successfully. This discussion certainly runs contrary. When I am required to do so much extensive research about something that is limited in impacting my overall fishing, I simply move beyond it and leave the subject matter to those that see value in it.

Successful people and businesses thrive by offering products and services that enhance their consumers life. So, how many companies do you support that complicate what you are attempting to achieve?

[Mapper]

Walt, Come over some day and I will show you how it works. Then you will have something to look forward to. John

I’ll look forward to fishing with you, John. The thermocline?? Not so much