CONTACT POINT

[John Bales]

Over the last few years of being on the water a lot, I have learned that catching fish is never the same for any two days. There are so many variables to consider, we just never get it completely right. When we think we got it, something changes and lets us know what we don't know. We can study maps and many times pick out the money spot right away but upon fishing it, find out that the fish are found at some other spot on the feature. Being one who wants all the fishing knowledge we can get, we start asking questions to why the fish are there, how did they get there, where are they when they are not on this spot on future trips and those questions never end. A person might think that because I have lived on my little 160 acre pond that I should know every inch of the bottom and every fish species location year around. I do know every feature well but that does not mean that I can predict ahead of time exactly what the fish are doing each and every day and seasonally. It a mater of fact that over the last year, I have realized that the LM bass can move pretty good distances over a short period of time in order to find a more fit place to survive when they are not the dominate fish in the lake. And more....... just because last year, the fish were in a certain spot or spots pretty much all summer long, do not expect the fish to take up residence in that spot the next year. I was always under the impression that the LM bass are born in one area , live in that area and die in that area and do not move around much like some of the other species. Two thoughts....... How difficult can it be to keep up with the locations the bass use in such a small body of water? The best answer is that it is big enough to create challenges (frustrations), that make you think and recheck until you get your answers or you don't get them at all. We do have guidelines that guide us through these challenges and for the most part, we may get some satisfaction from our study and what we learn on the water. There are so many variable to consider in some bodies of water that we may never figure everything out. In waters with the musky or northern pike, we may have to think where the bass could take up home where they are safe and do not get eaten. Take into consideration when you are fishing for the pike or musky where you do not catch them. What is different in that area? In lakes with a deep heavy weedline, for most of the time, the bass will be in and around these areas and casting will become a more effective way to find them. As you become more efficient at casting and locating the bass, you will realize how perfect a trolling pass will have to be to catch them and maybe realize that a trolled lure cannot be put into some of these situations. A weekend warrior may not ever get in tune with what the fish do with only getting to fish one or two days a week. Each weekend is like starting over to try and find out what the fish are doing. When you can be out there several days in a row and something changes, you get to see it and then the questions start to come into your brain on which condition caused things to get better or worse and how we may adapt to that change. Some of our questions may not be one of importance but then again, the desire to know is still there. Other things to consider in a natural lake with a deep weedline : The weedlines are not always the same year after year and especially when you add to that the weed spraying. You must consider where the spraying took place, what they are targeting and the end results of what is now dead and what areas have survived. The bass will end up in the heat of the summer where ever the deepest, thickest areas on or near a structure situation that have not been effected and are still green and full of life. The cold front is one of the things we keep an eye on because we know that pre-frontal conditions are better and post frontal conditions are not normally as good. Stability is the key and so we must also look at a weed spraying deal as what areas have the weeds died (unstable condition), and what areas have not been effected (more stable). It's a shame that we have to even think about this but as a fisherman, we are out numbered with votes and money. Done with that.
I have been blessed with being able to get to see what fish do, daily and seasonally and on a small body of water that you would not think could be such a great teacher for me. It has opened my eyes and thoughts and jump started my desire to learn more. Also made me realize that there are so many things we do not know or understand about what fish do and what you and I need to do to catch them. Mr. Perry gave us all the basics we need for success if we work hard enough to learn them. However, what has really hit me hard is the one thing that he said is our most important observation we can make and that is water color. When talking to Terry, every single lake he has ever made great catches on were on those with the best color. Time after time and why? The answer is that you can simply run the lures correctly and get the answers you need to become a pretty good spoonplugger. The clear lakes with weeds are truly not what these first spoonpluggers looked for. It is a fact that they would not get the boat off the trailer or rent a boat at all which is the way it was in those days. I would love to have a 3000 acre reservoir with good color right down the road that is full of big bass where I could go run the lures. 30 years ago, we had some of those lakes around and some of our best catches came from those lakes. That is all gone and replaced with gin clear lakes that would be full of deep weeds if the powers to be had not chosen to spray poison in them to make it all better as they believe. Done for now. John

[CHAMP]

I would love to have a 3000 acre reservoir with good color right down the road that is full of big bass where I could go run the lures
Yea I'm very thankful that Buckhorn res. is only 35 miles from my house, good water color and full of big bass.
Besides that there is a country grill just 2 miles from the lake that has a damn good sausage egg cheese biscuit at 5.30 in the morning.
Plan to be there tomorrow!

[joseph radunz]

Let me ask everyone this- in my area, the lakes that have dark water - the deepest water in the lake is usually much shallower than the deepest water say in a lake across the street that has clear water. ( if that makes sense) So.. question is does the deeper water in a clear lake offset weather conditions better than shallower deepest water in a dark lake? Any thoughts?

Joe

[MuskyAddict]

“We do have guidelines that guide us through these challenges and for the most part, we may get some satisfaction from our study and what we learn on the water. There are so many variable to consider in some bodies of water that we may never figure everything out.”

John, I’m very interested in how you’ve adapted to the changes since Mr. Perry developed his guidelines. Likely you have forgotten more than most will learn in a lifetime of fishing. The conditions today are somewhat different than Mr. Perry’s day in some areas of the country (and drastically different in other areas), I suppose. A Spoonplugger, or any serious fisherman, must always adapt to change. After 30, 40 or even 50 years since Mr. Perry developed his guidelines, have the fish adapted to a different environment? Are you fishing any differently today than you did 20 years ago? I’m not asking because I’m looking for the next “secret strategy” for the next generation of tournament fisherman. I’m asking because ….. I guess because as a newbie I’m starting to develop some faith in the process and I want to know more. I had the pleasure of meeting you and watching you fish one day. You pulled onto a lake you’ve never been on, drove to a spot and started catching multi species of fish like I’ve never witnessed. I’m sure my host, Fran, could have done the same if he wasn’t stuck showing this rookie how to troll a spoonplug. My point is - you, Fran and others have so much knowledge that you can pull onto a new body of water and do phenomenally well (compared to my experience). You didn’t “map” the structure (that I saw). Yet, you looked at the structure and made an interpretation that led to success. And, you were driving someone else’s boat. So, I guess my question is, was that just experience leading to a fun day on the water. Or, is there a “green book volume 2” that this community should be writing? Is there a wealth of experiences in this community that can be deemed “fact” and added to the guidelines already established? I realize it’s a loaded question but it’s worth asking.

Ken

[John Bales]

Hi Joe. I miss you buddy. No. In the fall when the thermocline goes away, the bass might be at 18 or 21 feet on the dark water lake and in the clear lake, they might be at 32. Why would you care. They are both the same , however in the clear lake they are a little deeper. You have the tools to fish any depth you need to so the only difference is the depth that the fish are. As a spoonplugger, you recognize where the fish are and work those depths. In the shallower lakes, the later it gets, they tend to not have the depth to off set the conditions where you can still catch them in the clearer lakes on the deeper breaklines. Our shallower lakes always go to pot late in the season and we just go to the deeper clearer lakes and can still catch them. The deeper water does seem to off set the conditions right before ice up. You use them just as you would after ice out. You would want to fish the shallower lakes first because they warm up faster and as the season progresses, you start fishing the deeper lakes and hit the peak all over again for what ever species you want to target. Take Care. john

[John Bales]

Ken, There is nothing that can replace 30 years of learning how to become a good troller. Without the knowledge that was gained by becoming a good troller, nothing else would matter. For years, I fished out of a 14 ft big jon built by lowe. All my buddies fished out of the same boat. We learned to troll. By doing so, we learned about structure, breaks and breaklines. Learned about fish movements, weather and water conditions, depth and speed, learned when and how to cast, what to cast for the situation. We really put our time in. Every weekend, all vacation time was spent on the water. Trolling was really our teacher, just like the book says. Back then, in my eyes, if you were not a spoonplugger, you were not shi.............. . You didn't know anything. Most of the lakes were untouched. We came along at the right time and were just lucky to do so. Terry O'malley told me the same thing. They came along at the right time. I followed up behind him on the same lakes and found the same spots as he did and made the same outstanding catches as he did. Our conversations to this day are about some of these spots that we have both made some outstanding catches on. Yes things have changed. The best lakes for spooonplugging are still the dark water colored lakes, and especially for the bass. You can run the lures and if the fish are there, you can get into the schools just like Buck said you could. The clearer lakes are not spoonplugging lakes. You cannot run the lures as you can on the off colored lakes. Yes, you can catch all the northerns you want but to get the bass, you need to make perfect trolling passes. You are better off interpreting the spots and learn to fish a jig for the bass on the deep weedlines. Look at the guys that get 60 northerns on a lake in one day and ask them how many bass they caught. Casting a structure will make up for lousy trolling passes on a deep clear lake where the bass are related very closely to the deep weeds or slightly tucked into the weed edge where a trolling pass may not get into the area where the bass may be. All the good spoonpluggers I know all started out with the little boats and became good trollers and we all learned the same things about what fish do. We all branched out from that point because anything that came along that we wanted to get good at was easy because we had learned the basics. Most of what has changed has been our water color. Most all of the lakes have cleared up, less fertile, deeper weeds, less fish, more boat traffic, weed spraying, less chance of getting into a school of anything. But, armed with years of becoming a good troller and what was learned from those efforts, you can adapt to about anything you are faced with. Mr. Perry was a special person (man), and got everything right. If you will take the time to become a good troller, keep lures in position for about 20 years, you will understand a lot of things you didn't know before. Take Care. John

[MuskyAddict]

John,
I really want to learn and gain experience. Knowing what you know today, if you had to start where I am, what equipment would you want (boat, motor and electronics). I still work 60 hours/week and don’t have a lot of time or access to the best water color. But I have a lot of lakes and fish within an hour drive. I am not afraid to work my A off.
Ken

[John Bales]

14-15 ft big jon boat with 20 hp . All the depth finders are great these days. Minimum of 7 inch screen. Like I said, you have to learn to become a good troller. Trolling is your teacher and will teach you about the features in the lakes, shapes, sizes, contact points. You will learn how important speed control is, the advantage when you can bump the bottoms, your observations of how weather and water conditions effect the movements of the fish. Trolling will get you all of this which you cannot get from casting. The trolling will tell you when and what to cast when the time comes. Use markers if you can(unless you have too many idiots around you), then get used to using shoreline sightings which are the best anyways. Way points are great but shoreline sightings are better. At least make an attempt to find some good water color so you can run the lures. Get on the water a lot because success will not come without a good effort. Many have gotten rid of their no bo line. They go to braid and never go back. This is a mistake. Use the no bo for down to 15-18 ft and then braid or wire. Just having the right tools makes a difference. Stick to spoonplugs only till you understand the basics and then you will know when something else could be a better tool at the time. You have to have a burning desire to do this. Those who succeed are willing to give up some other things in life to get there. Time on the water doing the right things will get you there. John

[MuskyAddict]

Thanks John. I’ll start looking.

Ken

[joseph radunz]

Jon,

That’s exactly what I was wondering, the shallower lakes seem to be getting crappy, t-clines setting up now only allowing fish to be 15-17 ‘ deep. Clearer lakes are usually spring fed so no t-clines, allowing fish to go deeper.
Anyway, just got back from fishing a new lake, t-storms last night and blue birds today. Hit half a dozen pike between 30 and 34” at the base of the weeds in 18’ on a 100, they were on all the main points and turns, checked the other side of the hole and found a small hump that was a foot shallower the everything else and low and behold bass. Hit the first one and threw a marker- turned around and hit another - threw a marker. I had them pinned between two markers- anchored up and went to town casting, ended up with a dozen before it shut off. Movement was around 10:30 to 11. Biggest bass was only 3 lbs but it sure is rewarding to get into a school casting on new water.

I think you and deb should move up here, I bet Fran would give you a hell of a deal on rent for one of the rooms in his palace! You could run from the sprayers!

Anyway, have a good day my friend

Joe

[John Bales]

Joe, What you did is exactly the goal of a spoonplugger. In my eyes, if you have never done that(found the fish trolling, stop and wipe them out on the cast), you just are not there yet. I knew when you and I talked that you have the stuff and know what to do with it. So what they weren't 4-6 pounders. Maybe they will be another time. Line up every spoonplugger and ask for a show of hands who have found the bass on the troll and then gotten into a good group of them on the cast. Those who don't raise their hand have some work to do. Movements like that do not happen all the time but when it does, it will carry you till the next one comes along. Great job!!!!!! Headed out now and fish till dark. John

[frankyav]

Musky Addict,

Not to get off the topic but thought I would chime in.

You asked this question for John.

John,
I really want to learn and gain experience. Knowing what you know today, if you had to start where I am, what equipment would you want (boat, motor and electronics). I still work 60 hours/week and don’t have a lot of time or access to the best water color. But I have a lot of lakes and fish within an hour drive. I am not afraid to work my A off.

The best things you can do in my opinion to accelerate the learning process, provided you have the correct equipment.
1) Make sure you have read the green book
2) Take in as much via media, utubes, Don Dickson etc.
3) This is the most important. Hire a CSI such as John for a couple of 2 or 3 day sessions of one on one.

I think about it every so often and the only thing I had was the green book when first starting. There was no utubes or the information we have available to us today. I caught a lot of "ok fish" trolling the 1st three or four sizes. I did this for four or five years way too long, the benefit was that I learned how to troll pretty well and that experience, still benefits me to this day. But the detriment was I was going no further with my fishing.

I realized I was on the right path, but had reached a plateau and there was much more to learn, and I was just scratching the surface. I was determined to get better and needed help. I called Don Nichols and others and asked if I could go out with them, with no success. It took about a year, but I was determined to get better. I finally was able to reach Frank Cipria an experienced local spoon plugger, he took me out on a deep clear lake for my first experience with a knowledgeable, seasoned, spoonplugger. This experience helped me to turn the corner in my fishing success and I only got better from this point on. I still thank Frank to this day, in fact talked to him yesterday. 82 years old and fishing in high heat he boated over 30 northerns in 3 or 4 hours.

The point I am trying to make is, with the information available today and the opportunities to fish with a Certified instructor or knowledgeable
spoonplugger, you can become proficient in 2, 3 or 4 years depending on your drive. Your learning will be accelerated 10 fold. I can only dream about the fishing opportunities you have in the area you live. Just my thoughts

Frank

[John Bales]

Everyone that does this had (has) a learning curve. The time it might take a person to start catching fish depends on how much time you can spend on the water(provided this person follows the guidelines). You must have a burning desire to learn. One thing the book didn't say is how much effort it takes to see consistent success. I am not sure a lot of fishermen realize the time some of us put into this. No one talks about the fish we don't catch on some of the long tough days which you will have. It takes a strong mental attitude to stick with it when the catching is not going like the dream catches you see someone else making. Anyone can do this, but you must spend your time on the water, doing the right things in order to get it. It is a wonderful thing to have. John

[Steve Craig]

Frank,
Excellent post Frank. Exactly right!
It appears you and I had about the same experience early on.
I too just trolled the first 3 sizes and had so much success, that i didnt feel I needed to go deeper!
When I started fishing other lakes, with different color, success went downhill fast! I finally did what you have suggested to Ken. I got lessons from both Don and Tommy.
Light years were saved in the learning curve.
All newbie Spoonpluggers should take the time to go with a John Bales, Jerry Borst, and they will really learn what it take to be successful.

[MuskyAddict]

Frank, John and Steve.

Thanks for the great comments and suggestions. I’ve already given thought to the CSI (didn’t know they actually had a designation). I’ve spent thousands of dollars on Muskie guides and none could explain to my why that Muskie was in that area or why it was eating (except to tout the moon). I’m SURE I could learn tons from experienced Spoonplugger and plan to reach out often.

On a side note, I went out this evening for 3 hours and didn’t catch one fish. I fished the weed edge breakline at 7’ and the top and base of a breakline from 14-18’. I wasn’t all that impressed with the structure because it was very flat from 18’ to the deepest water in the bay at 32’. But, water clarity was 2’ and there was a lot of sand on the bottom (which allowed me to check the SP depth using different lengths). All in all I felt better (not great) about my boat control and I learned how the muck, sand and gravel feels when the SP is bouncing correctly. I’ll be back out there at sunrise to learn more and work hard to catch some fish.

Ken