Livescope

[John Bales]

Since coming back from South Dakota, I have not fished any other lake but my own. My brother in law has a money problem so I have not had a partner for a while. Realized that when having a partner, you work a lot harder and longer because he has an investment in his time so I work harder to get him on the fish. Also makes it very obvious that two fishermen in a boat is better than one, especially when it's time to make hay. I would say that any fish that intends to be in a group of adult fish either near the outside weedline or deeper, have had enough time to be there. Not sure why but two groups that are pretty good in numbers are suspended most of the time. Not sure if this will go away but finding out that when these fish are up off the bottom, they are difficult to catch. However, if you are there when they are somewhat active, you can get one or two or maybe more but many times after the first fish, they break up and catching the second one may not happen. When I first saw them two, three weeks ago, I thought they could be carp but now after catching enough of them, I am sure they are all bass with a few pike hanging around them. Most all depth and speed controls will get them to follow but not commit. A jerkbait above them seems to be the best speed control for these fish that are ten feet down in 16 feet of water. If I can get more then three or four to follow or the whole school as sometimes happens, its almost a sure thing I'm going to get bit. I speed up the retrieve and shorten the pause when this happens. You can't take it away from them when they get fired up like that. One of them or as I had happen one evening, I got two on one lure. Both of these groups of fish are directly related to good structure situations so nothing has changed on that part. Maybe this suspended thing will go away as summer starts to set in and they will be more on the bottom and maybe easier to catch. I have also learned to walk away when a few depths and speeds are tried with no takers to go catch a few stragglers. Not much different than if I were trolling. Still some really good spots do not have much on them,. That's a big question mark for me. I have noticed one thing. Where there are groups of fish or even a lot of stragglers spread over an area but not ganged up, there is always schools of bluegill around. Where there are very few bluegill, there are very few bass or pike. I have heard other fishermen say that the bass follow the bait and I had never believed that before now. But still, where there are bass and bluegill, they are near a structure. Structure has to be considered. Where the bass are suspended , both spots is directly off of a good feature. Not out in the middle of nowhere. There are some fish that do seem to be out in the middle of no where and I have caught a few of them and mostly they are adults but there are no guidelines to repeat that with exception of putting a way point and going back another time to that way point to see if it can happen again. I see things now that could never be seen before. Most of what I see all adds up and is becoming more understanding but the one thing that is very clear is that Buck did get it all right without any depth finder at all. He knew all of what I am looking at but never put anything in the study material that was too difficult for the average spoonplugger if that person just followed the guidelines. That's what I suggest everyone to do. What I am doing for myself is trying to have more of an understanding of what I already know to be fishing facts . When I get tired of looking around and start getting bored, which has not happened yet, I will venture out to some of the other lakes I have fished for years and again, start learning all over. I know now that even though natural lakes are all put into one catagory, they are still all different. I know my lake very well but have gotten some eye opening experiences so far and I don't expect any of the other lakes to be much different. John

[Steve Craig]

John
I am finding pretty much the same thing as you. Most of the fish are suspending here right now.
And yes......where there are Bluegills, the bass are also there!
Im looking forward to tomorrow on Apache Lake. I have so many mapped structures that I want to look at. And as you are finding, one of the problems, is that many of those fish, and ESPECIALLY the bigger fish, are not showing up on traditional structures where they should be.
I look around and here are fish, usually only 1 or 2, but always BIG bass out there in No Where land! Bill Murphy and Paul Prorok talked about this a little in their book. I look and for the life of me, I cant see why they are there!!!
My feeling is that there are some kind of breaks that are simply not showing up on our depth finders in that dead zone all depth finders have.
The schools of bass are still relating to structure while suspending, but there are no really big bass with them.
For anyone that would like to see, I will include a couple of screen shots from my FFSonar showing a school of 3 pound bass and one BIG 10+ fish.

Screenshot_2023-06-21_12.10.44.png (1.22 MiB) Viewed 456871 times

Screenshot_2023-06-21_12.25.04.png (1.19 MiB) Viewed 456871 times

[John Bales]

The last 6-7 times out, I would go out mid day. I did that to be out there in the blazing sun knowing it was the toughest time of the day. I got tired of not catching as many as I wanted to so today was on the water at 7:15. From my first spot till about 9:30 it was pretty easy, meaning that most fish I saw could be caught. When that went away, the biting went to getting snubbed all together or maybe a slight look or follow but no more takers. I did that for an hour and called it a morning. Tomorrow I will try and make it out there even earlier to see if maybe those suspended fish can be had right off the bat. Denny told me tonight that he has been going out real early for the bluegill and as soon as that sun comes up above the trees, he says it has been over at that point. After this morning, I believe that. I'll make an attempt to show one of the groups of bass I am working on and then show some of the groups of bluegill. Maybe catch a fish or two. John

[John Bales]

Yesterday Deb and I went out to our lake and found that the group of bass by the sunken island on the inside turn related to the saddle were not only still there but more in numbers. The larger fish are deeper than the rest and still suspended about ten feet down in 16 feet of water. It seems like early morning and evening are the two best activity periods. The two best speed controls on the cast are still the jerk bait which keeps the bait at the depth or slightly above the group of fish and a 7 inch swim bait rigged line through with a 1/0 treble stuck in the bottom of the lure with a 1/2 oz weight. I was able to get two 3 1/2 pounders in about ten minutes, one of the jerk bait and one on the big swim bait. In both cases the whole school committed and every single time I visually see this happen, you just know the competition will get you bit. Every time this happens, the fish tend to break up into smaller groups and sometimes it doesnt take long for them to get back together but other times when they break up, some go to the bottom and you can no longer see them at all. Buck would call this spooking the school. It is quite interesting to watch it happen live. In yesterdays case, in a minute or two, the school got back together rather fast and when I threw the swim bait into them, every one of them followed it to the bottom and one took it before it got to the bottom. They still were fired up. After that, you could forget it. The other group of bass I had on another spot have seemed to be broken up and spread out , not all together and suspended as before. Lots of pike now from the base of the weedline and many suspended over the thermocline which is starting to set up now. Yesterday I looked out over deep water and there was a pretty large pike only 4 feet down over 20 feet of water. I put the big swim bait on his nose and he immediately hit it but I missed him. He swam right to the bottom and out of sight. Livescope is just like any other sonar. If the fish are right on the bottom, you do not see them on any sonar. They need to be at least a foot or so off the bottom before they show up. After a front, sometimes you can go to several spots and not see hardly any fish. You already know what's going on in a very short time of looking. You know its going to be straggler fishing for a while till they get a little active, if they do. There are still some of my best spots with very few adult fish on them. I am sure this will change but don't know when or why it may change. I have found out that all species migrate to different areas of the lake and it can happen rather fast. My guess is that some locations just suit them better for the time of year. Yesterday a friend came over with his wife and trolled spoonplugs all day. He caught one bass. Deb and I got 15 with two nice adults. I have said for a long time that when a good population of pike or musky exists, that the bass are very likely associated with the weeds and if you want the bass, you need to be a jig fisherman and get into the weeds or very close with precise casts in order to get the bass. Points and inside turns will do it. It is easy to understand why Mr. Perry says that every day is different because it is. We still fish structure as our guideline but the results are never the same. John

[linksluvr]

Thanks John, very interesting stuff. In a few weeks I'm going to be retiring to Don Dickson territory in Leesburg Fl., and I was wondering if a Livescope type setup is as useful in those shallow bowl type lakes compared to the northern -- multiple structure lakes? Thanks, Pat

[John Bales]

Pat, Your learning will start all over again. Your trolling will become 95 percent and casting will be simply less efficient. The spoonplug because of the summer speeds needed will be your go to lure. Normal speeds of 3-5 during the colder part of the season. There are many reasons casting will be less used and you will find out why in time. Depth finders will need to be adjusted to identify the muck lines , breaklines. Movements will be different. Many times stragglers will be less in between movements. Water color will become more important in the shallower lakes unless they have depth. Many of those lakes have been nuked so bad that populations of bass are way down. You will find out which ones have good or bad populations and go from there. Many bottoms you will not be able to bump so speed is the way to get them. Other places you can bump so that is better to get the fish to take. No bo will be one of your tools so make sure you have that rigged up for sure. The heat can be like no other so rig your boat with umbrella and get a good one and you will have to use it to be able to stay out there while you are waiting for a movement. Their growing season is long so even if a population is not so good, in 3-4 years you can have fresh adult fish in the 3 lb range unless the spraying doesn't let up. Then find another lake. Some of the smaller waters could really be good if you can find the right ones. There are many. One massive spray job can wreck something that has been very good in short order. Hydrilla is a tough weed and can fill a shallow lake up where you cannot navigate your boat through it. It is what it is. The good thing about Florida is that you have a chance to catch a big one . No smallmouth, no pike or musky so your presentation of lures will have to be right on all the time. If not, be prepared for frustration. I suggest you get in contact with Phil Szafranski who can give you some changes you will run into. Don't expect all the answers but he will help you. I remember when Phil moved down there , we talked about these things and Phil has adapted very well and learned along the way. The same will happen with you. What you need to do will be a bit out of the norm, the structures you will contend with will be a change but in time and with some effort, you will find satisfaction and success. You will have your hands full for a few years before you will even have an idea where to look with the livescope. I would not consider buying one till you learn what lakes you are going to fish and learn them well. This will require lots of trolling with spoonplugs. John

[linksluvr]

Thanks, it's a little late to change my mind, so I'll make the best of it!. A bimini top is already on order -- just have to figure out how to keep one of the poles out of the way for trolling. Pat

[John Bales]

Those are a pain in the ass. I have one but its sitting out of the way not being used. Umbrella's are the best. You will find out there are too many things in the way with a top like that. Sorry for having to say that but it's true. Some like them. Maybe you will find a way it will work. John

[linksluvr]

I can still cancel it

[John Bales]

I will give you mine and you can throw it in the trash if you dont like it. Come down and pick it up. I think my old low was 72 inches wide. If it will fit your boat, come and get it. John

[Team9nine]

Thanks for the detailed posts, John. Really enjoy reading these observations. A couple questions have come to mind based on them if you have a minute.

Now that you’ve become good at seeing and interpreting your Livescope, has it changed your perception of the bass population in your lake? Since you can see the schools, and it sounds like just two good groups of fish in your lake at the moment, do you feel the bass population is not as good as you thought, or perhaps better than you thought? How does what you’re seeing match up to how well you thought the lake had come back before having Livescope?

The other question, is do you find yourself now passing up areas you would have normally checked out in the past (good structures) because you don’t see a group of bass? Do you find yourself just trying to locate and fish schools now, or do you stop and slow down and fish tight to the bottom on these areas anyway since you know the bass can hide from the Livescope? Any examples of a good catch made when you couldn’t see a school because they were all hugging bottom, there, but not apparent?

Thanks!

Brian

[Steve Craig]

Go with the unbrellas!
I use Two 6 footers. One near each seat. I dont use the crank up kind. Get the push up. Ive had mine now for many years. Just now bought 2 new ones as mine are starting to wear out. I just screw a 1/2 pipe Thread to the floor and screw in a 1 inch by 12 inch pipe. I slide the unbrella pole over it and use a heavy bungy to keep it from blowing off while trolling or in high wind.
Has worked on 3 different boats now. Can troll and cast with little problems.

John,
Your findings are almost the same as what I am seeing.
My own observations, once we get into Sanctuary depths, is that things change somewhat from what we know happens in water less than 30 feet. Jerry Borst taught me to spend extra time once I get downstairs, looking around in and below that 30-35 foot mark. Both with a depth finder and with the lures. Whether the fish act differently or we simply cant see with traditional sonar, is anyone's guess. I just know that the bigger fish are a different critter. Buck even said so. Im not talking about 4-6 pound fish. Im talking about the true monsters. 10 and up.
I might wrinkle some feathers here, but since I started using Forward Facing Sonar, a whole new world has opened up to me, especially in the deep water below 35 feet.
Those bigger fish do not act like their smaller brethren. They roam around far more than we ever thought. Why they do this, I dont yet know. I just know that they do, and I have had to adjust my fishing to take advantage of this fact.
Buck caught fish in really deep water. In over 100 feet on Lake Mead. He said so, but he never went on to tell us more about doing it. Why? Because we are/were children in our learning and we simply couldnt handle that knowledge at the time. Tommy Ferencek told me some about it many years ago and it all went right over my head. I wasnt ready as a new Spoonplugger. Later on, before he died, we were able to talk more about it in emails and text. By then he was a deep water, salt water guy. Im glad he shared these things with me before he passed too soon.
FFSonar, will show you things that traditional sonar doesnt. Im NOT talking about how the so-called Pro's use it in the Tournaments. They dont have a clue of how it will help you in those sanctuary depths.They are still in the shallows for the most part and sometimes they might go into 20 foot of water. Where FFS really shines is in the deep and deeper!
Fish you mark with Traditional sonar and later disappear, are still right there all the time. They just dont show up once they drop in that 18inch to 24 inch dead spot on Sonar and downscan. Even Flashers have the same dead zone. FFS has the same dead spot, just not as bad. Maybe more like 12 inches, but still enough for a huge bass to not be there than all of a sudden she is! I have followed BIG bass around a structure ( notice I didnt say I was out willy nilly, looking around like I have been accused of doing and going away from Bucks teaching) only to watch her disappear on the bottom right in front of me.
We have always been taught that we need to find the Contact Point. This is true for the most part. But if a guy wants to catch the really BIG bass( and Im talking LM BASS here, not other species) You might be surprised where they spend their time on a structure. Bill Murphy and Paul Prorok talked about this in their book.
Like Buck said BIG bass are a different critter and she doesnt want to leave that deep water zone, and I am finding out that is so true.
Thats my take on FFS.

[John Bales]

Brian, Good questions. Bass population........ What has changed in my opinion of my lake now that I can actually see what is down there? I fully expected to see pretty much what I had expected to see. Also the spots I see the most fish on are pretty much the same spots I always catch them on. However the best and most consistent spot , I have never gotten the adults but had always thought they should be there. This spot is a nice sharp inside turn right in the middle of a saddle between a hump and a bar. They are mostly 150 feet away from a weedline in either direction. The shocker was that both schools , most of the time were ten feet down over 16 feet of water. Yes they do swim right down to the bottom when they want to for a spell and then right back up with the others. The other group is not in the same position they were a week and a half ago. They are no longer a close nit group and suspended. There are some like that in the area but one or two at a time. The rest have spread out on both sides of a large flat bar and are more weed related. Some are very close to the exact outside edge and all of the fish seem to be one to three fish in an area. Yesterday the spot where they are still in a tight group together, there were more bass in that group than I have seen all year. Another thing, I never expected to have a jerk bait tied on this time of year, especially since I am not the greatest at it to begin with. I got my first good fish out of a group with 4-5 fish in it. Looked around to see where they were and make another cast and out from that group were a bigger bunch. I couldn't make them react to the jerkbait so I threw my 7 inch swim bait (Bass Mafia self rigged), and the whole group followed it to the bottom and one took it just before it hit the bottom. I think with the whole ball of wax involved, what really is different than I would expect is that some of my best features in the lake right now have very few adult bass using them. Two of the best ones. Although just before I went to South Dakota, one of them was my best spot. This was early post spawn and a few were at the edge of the weeds and some out in open water at 15-16 and I could catch them pretty often. Now that spot is vacant. I have one more flatter area that I keep looking for a bunch of good ones but the group has not shown themselves. There are some fish in that area but not many good ones. Their locations of where they can be and where they might move to or move away from is not quite understood and it may never be completely known as to why. Most of the time if I do not see fish, I still make a few casts just due to the fact that I do realize that when belly to the bottom, they cannot be seen. When I do not see many fish on several areas, I can also assume that it's going to be a tough day at least till their activity changes. I saw a giant pike on the hump last week that was belly to the bottom, came up and swam slowly along for about ten feet and then back to the bottom. Did not see that one again. I have never caught several fish in a row when I could not see them, never. Usually when things are tough, there are options. Post spawn is good for top water. I may stay on the outside edge and look up into the weeds, then along the base and then out over open water. I always have several rods near me to chose from depending where the fish is located, how fast I need to get my lure to the fish and other factors that go into what speed control I want to check first. An example would be my boat at he base and looking up into, along the base and out over open water while casting a top water over the shallow weeds, or casting a swimbait up into the weeds while looking at the same look as before. My main deal is a drop shot with a 1/2 oz weight so I can get it in front of what I see fast. Wind makes doing this much more difficult, especially if you want to see if you got your lure to the fish and then watch how they react. At first I didn't really take the time to watch the fish and the lures but soon realized that if I wanted to get any better at this thing or get really good, I must see my lure, make sure I put it in front of the fish and then follow through with how they react to my offering. The final straw is finding the right depth and speed to get the fish to take. Very rewarding at times and simply frustrating when they are just not active at all. We are all aware of a fish's activity, that it changes throughout the day. I used to sit on a spot for 3 hours or more waiting for their activity to change or digging for the right depth and speed control. Not any more. Frank Hamill always said that you cannot make a great catch till the fish get active. I agree but there is a thing that Mr. Perry said about putting a lure in front of a fish's face at 0 speed and that fish might suck it in. When I find that the fish are not active, I tend to move along a lot more and try and pick off a single or two and they are usually not over 2 pounds when the rest of the fish are not doing squat. Hope I've answered what you asked. This is more fun for me than I have had in a long time. Some real interesting facts of what fish do on my lake have made me do a lot of thinking and there are still questions that may get answered or maybe not ever get a real good answer. But having so much fun right now, I don't want this to change right now. I know Brian you have been doing this as long as I have only you are a very quiet person. Would love to hear your thoughts on what you have learned too. John

[John Bales]

So I just today have another opinion about my lake. I needed a change so I decided to get out early and go to a lake 10 miles down the road which is deep and clear, has a decent amount of pike and they have been stocking walleye in there for quite a few years. Not the greatest bass population but like I said, I needed a change and I wanted to put some walleyes in the frying pan. Three years ago a friend called me and said that the DNR had sprayed and there was not a blade of grass in the lake. He said they killed everything. I had not been back since and what I saw today makes me think that I will never go back. I checked every structure in the lake and not one time did I see a fish that was big enough that I would have casted to. Saw one pike on a deep hump and I should have seen many more at this time of the year near the outside weedline. So now I can say that my lake compared to this one is fantastic. John

[Team9nine]

I’ve had Livescope for 3 years now. I debated with myself quite a bit in the beginning, as I am somewhat unhappy with where the technology has taken the sport, but like many, finally decided the learning component outweighed my opposition, in general. So I went with the smallest, least expensive unit I could buy at the time, which was a used 7” Garmin which I don’t believe is made or even supported anymore.

Being further south, nearly all my fishing is done on small flatland impoundments that feature shallow depths and stained water. Most all also thermocline in the summer, usually in the 18’-22’ range, but often as shallow as 10’. As such, our bass rarely suspend, and are often cover related, shallow, and near bottom. Because of that, I haven’t used the unit to the same degree you’ve been able to up north. We have no weedlines down here, either.

Instead, for bass, I use it more like 360, scanning ahead of the boat to see breaks and breaklines, and to better position the boat for casting. It also works to help with lure selection in regards to depth control. While I occasionally run into groups of bass at certain times of the year, I haven’t run into them with the Livescope yet. I would have loved to have owned it back when Lake Waveland was at its peak, and catching 10, 20, or even 30 or more bass from a single school on a single spot was possible.

What I really bought it for was crappie fishing, which is the predominant use down on our reservoirs. This is where most of my learnings have come. We used to graph over a spot, drop a buoy for positioning, and then cast. Now, on most known spots, I stop well short and use the FFS to scan and position without disturbing the school. On clearer water lakes, or very hot calm days, it has made a big difference with not spooking the schools. One thing that surprised me was how shallow many of these crappie suspend. Oftentimes, this might be just 2 or 3 feet under the surface, but in relation to a stump or brushpile in 6, 8 or even 10 ft of water.

Depth control of lures in relation to these schools has been another benefit. Since I watch the jig on the screen most of the time, I can put the bait right above a fishes head on nearly every cast, regardless of how deep or shallow he is positioned. Its very efficient.

I play around with controls more now than I ever used to, especially action. Since you can see the school sitting there, if they won’t hit a tube I might try a curlytail, or a shad body before moving on, where, in the past, if they didn’t bite right away, I usually just moved on to the next spot figuring it was just a matter of finding the right active school. Many times in the past I was probably fishing under the fish because I wasn’t aware of how high up they'd suspend, so now I also keep a lighter weight setup handy for shallow depth control along with my usual heavier setups for deep water work.

Another benefit is I lose a lot less jigs over the course of a year because of the ability to visualize and control the depth of your presentation in regards to cover. Now I often can just swim and skim the jig over cover instead of counting down and it burying itself in a brushpile.

It has also helped immensely in standing timber, which I used to always pass up and not fish. Now it is easy to just scan all the timber and see which trees the fish are using and which they aren’t - also how deep or shallow they are suspended around the trunks. Since after many years the trees rot and break off just below the waterline, I now can easily spot these “hidden” trees that aren’t visible above water, but extend most all the way to the surface. In the past, you found these by hitting them with your prop or your lower unit, and then marking them on GPS before looking for engine damage - lol.

It all adds up to a lot of efficiencies which resulted in greater catches. I kept track a year or two ago of just my crappie trips and ended up with over 5,000 crappie caught just by myself that year.