Tyro Mapping Question - variable depth breakline

[TN_Explorer]

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I am working on mapping (and vocabulary). This seems to be my biggest roadblock to becoming a spoonplugger. Buck put so much emphasis on it that I know it is a critical skill, so I am determined to get at least a working knowledge of it. I am currently on my third read of volume 7 part one on mapping and interpretation.

Starting off easy with a well defined bar. I have found a breakline on the east (right side) at about 15 feet. It goes all the way around, but gets deeper near the tip (18-20 feet), and shallower on the west (left side). I find this when I run off from shallow to deep to toss markers. I have used both a flasher and a newer unit, and they pretty much agree on the depths.

When I try to contour troll at 15 feet I get lost when the breakline gets deeper and the lure free swims. When I move in to get it bouncing I'm sure I am no longer on the breakline. So every time I try to draw a map of this bar it is a little different. I have resisted the urge to let the depthfinder record this whole structure and draw the result- Buck sez the spoonplugs need to show you what's down there - but I don't like the maps I have drawn and I certainly don't trust my maps. And this should be such a simple structure! Aargh! Am I overthinking this?

Thanks for any thoughts.

-- Mike

[Steve Craig]

Mike,
Depending on what map we have, mine shows several good breaklines, but until a guy runs it, you just dont know.
I see the first one at 12 to 16. Another at 21 feet or so, one at 24 feet and the final one at the Contact Point at 27 breaking into 30 plus feet of water. It is the only Sharper Break breaking into the deepest water in the area.
Your map looks a little different than mine.

Remember, when looking at your maps, we START at the deepest water and look at the structure from deep to shallow.
When we fish it, we fish shallow to deep.

My question to you is why are you trying to contour troll at 15 feet? Your contour trolling should have all ready been done with the first 3 sizes IN THE SHALLOWS.
If you have run this thing from deep to shallow and shallow to deep, with your depth finder, and placed a few markers on the 15 foot breakline, on the east side,and at the tip , as you say, 18 feet,then ALL PASSES AT THAT POINT SHOULD BE MADE IN A STRAIGHT LINE!

You run the 15 foot breakline, IN A STRAIGHT LINE, on the east side in both directions.
Since I see no breaklines on the west side of the bar, then I skip that side.
Then I run across the end of the bar, IN A STRAIGHT LINE, letting the lure bump when it hits 15 feet in both directions.
Then I run a 700, IN A STRAIGHT LINE, in both directions and also up that east side in both directions.
Then i run an 800, IN A STRAIGHT LINE, the same as the other lures across the end of the bar, and up and down the east side, keeping the lures bumping as much as possible, in both directions.
As you do this, note shore line sightings so it becomes easy to know where your passes should be.

My last pass will be with the 800 from out in the deep running straight up that bar all the way to the Crown and then stop the boat and crank the lure in the rest of the way.

Something I see on my map, suggests that that bar MIGHT be an old Roadbed. You will have to check it out.
Hope this helps.

[Team9nine]

Steve has covered it perfectly, but I'll just add this Terry O'Malley quote from one of his seminars that Chase recorded:

"Now days, guys are running the lures with the depthfinder when they should be able to map the bar with the depthfinder and then run the bar with the lures."

Map it first using the depthfinder. You can draw your own map first doing this, and then let the depthfinder do it and compare the two to see where the differences lie. This is a good way to get better at mapping. Then, run the lures to figure out some of the stuff like bottom content, breaks/snags, hard/soft, and where the fish like to set up.

From all that, you should then be able to figure out some casting positions to work from and do that. Its a pretty narrow and uncomplicated bar from the looks of it on Navionics, so this shouldn't be too difficult. I'm guessing you are overthinking it a bit, which is easy to do with all the information available to us these days.

[TN_Explorer]

Thanks for the responses. I'm stubborn and hardheaded, so I will eventually get there, but I'm also thickheaded, so please forgive me for being a dunderhead and let's continue --

Steve, you say: "My question to you is why are you trying to contour troll at 15 feet? Your contour trolling should have all ready been done with the first 3 sizes IN THE SHALLOWS."

-- Volume 7, page 12, says: "We should not expect the first two sizes to tell us much . . . But by the time we are through with the 250 series (6-9 feet) we should begin to see the shape of the area . . ." He goes on to say "After the shallows are worked, the bottom of the deeper structure should be mapped. Enough trolling passes are made with lures walking (bumping) the bottom, to be sure all areas are covered. Breaklines and bottom conditions should be carefully noted." Then, on page 16, the first map shows a breakline running from 8-12 feet deep. Further throughout the book there are maps with much deeper breaklines.

So my followup question is how to map an irregular baseline deeper than the shallows? I can' t see how to draw a really nice curving breakline by making straight passes. What am I missing?

[Team9nine]

There are numerous ways to map a bar. One of the most common is using your depthfinder ala Don Dickson. See this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ms2sL2D0WXo

In that same Study Guide you mentioned (7), page 14, Fig. 3, shows you an example of using straightline passes to map a bar. It shows 4 passes, but it also notes to use "As many as necessary." If you were graphing it with your Live unit making the map, you would run a series of straight line passes back and forth in one direction, row after row, and then a similar series in a 90 degree (perpendicular) orientation, row after row, all straight line passes. You would end up with a series of trails that looks like a checkerboard on your depthfinder when done. In that example, you would do the same to get an idea of where the breaklines were located and how steep they are, etc., just not using "Live mapping" (by choice or becasue you don't have it).

You could also drop a lot of marker buoys every time you want to mark a breakline and eventually you would have the shape of the bar outlined by the buoys to help visualize everything. Note the buoys dropped and the accompanyiing explanation in that Figure 3 example.

Another technique Steve Craig showed me one of the times we fished together is to simply use icons or waypoints on your depthfinder at specific depths. For exaample, you still make those straightline passes, but everytime you come up out of deep water to the 15 ft. mark, you drop a waypoint/icon. You do the same when the bar drops back off at the 15 ft level. Keep making straightline passes as you move further out, marking that 15 ft. contour. Eventually, you have a series of icons or markers on your unit outlining the 15 ft depth contour and showing you the shape of the bar or feature. You could do this for any depth, or even multiple depths on the same structure by using different icons for each specific depth (e.g., 10 ft., 15 ft, 20 ft., etc).

Some people simply are better at visualizing a structure in their head, and may not need all the markers, etc. They simply drive around the structure, watching their graph as well as using line sights and watching their boat trail in the water to see the shape of a structure.

Bottom line is that there is no one "right" way these days given all the tools/aids at our disposal. You simply have to figure out a method or system that works best for you, whatever that happens to be.

[Steve Craig]

Mike,
You are confusing fishing( running the lures) with Mapping. When we map, we DO NOT RUN A LURE IN THE WATER. We only use our Depth finder.

Here is the way to do it quick and easy:
Start at the Crown of your Bar and find the 10 foot depth on top. Drop a marker there.
Now go out and find the deepest water out off the end or near the end of your bar. ( in your case off the east side) Forget about that west side as it shows that it is a just a flat, gentle slopping area)
Then drive in a straight line right to your 10 foot marker and watch your flasher and note each and every quick change in depth.( breaklines)
Now run off your bar towards the east and when you find your 15 foot breakline, you now, using only your depth finder, follow it as far around the bar as you can, and note ANY change in direction you see buy throwing a marker towards the shoreline side of the boat.
You will be "Contour trolling" that breakline WITHOUT a lure in the water.
Start at 15 and follow the breakline. When your flasher starts to change from 15 to 16 then ease the boat back until it hits 15 and then ease it back out until it hits 16 or whatever the base is. If it is a 3 foot drop, then your flasher will read 15 then quickly drop to 18.
Now you do this again and again on each breakline you see around that bar.
NOW......sit down and draw a map of what you have. It dont have to be perfect. You can fill in all the depths later by running right off the length of that bar.

FISHING IT............
You now have a marker at each spot on the breakline that is 'different" or is a change you found.
There might be a finger or two, or or you might have a sharper break at one spot ON THE BREAKLINE.
Make sure you have a marker at your 18 foot spot and any other "spots" on the tip of the bar. Note all this on your map.
If it were me fishing it. I would now put on a 700 with a short line and run from Marker to marker, at the 15 foot breakline, IN A STRAIGHT LINE, and do it both directions. Then do the same across the end of the bar both directions, and checking different speeds as well.
You dont have to be hitting every inch of that breakline. Just those "spots" you found while Mapping. Bump it as much as you can, but you should for sure bump each "spot".Straight line passes are how it is done after the 10 foot depths.

- Volume 7, page 12, says: "We should not expect the first two sizes to tell us much . . . But by the time we are through with the 250 series (6-9 feet) we should begin to see the shape of the area . . ." He goes on to say "After the shallows are worked, the bottom of the deeper structure should be mapped. Enough trolling passes are made with lures walking (bumping) the bottom, to be sure all areas are covered. Breaklines and bottom conditions should be carefully noted." Then, on page 16, the first map shows a breakline running from 8-12 feet deep. Further throughout the book there are maps with much deeper breaklines.

Mike,
When Buck wrote this, you must remember he wasnt using a depth finder at the time. The LURES were his depth finder.
Do it like I listed above and you ill not have any problems

[TN_Explorer]

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Thank you guys -- I have watched that Don Dickson video so many times. The last time it <almost> clicked. I am slowly getting it. I guess the problem is I have been trying very hard not take shortcuts, so I have been almost religious in not using the depthfinder -- "turn the danged thing off!"

Brian, Steve -- your comments have helped a lot. It's supposed to rain/snow tonight & the rest of the week be ugly, so I will have the opportunity to digest all this and have another go at it (hopefully) next week.

Thanks for the help!!

-- Mike

[Team9nine]

proxy-image.jpg

Thank you guys -- I have watched that Don Dickson video so many times. The last time it <almost> clicked. I am slowly getting it. I guess the problem is I have been trying very hard not take shortcuts, so I have been almost religious in not using the depthfinder -- "turn the danged thing off!"

Brian, Steve -- your comments have helped a lot. It's supposed to rain/snow tonight & the rest of the week be ugly, so I will have the opportunity to digest all this and have another go at it (hopefully) next week.

Thanks for the help!!

-- Mike

Very noble endeavor, but remember that Buck patented the Spoonplug in 1946. He had no choice in the matter. A few original guys like Terry, John and Don probably started off similarly in the 1960s, but from about 1970 on, most everyone got their start using a flasher. I’m guessing most of us others started that way, too. I say all that to say that if you want to learn with just the basics, use a flasher or “flasher mode” along with marker buoys to map...and Spoonplugs to help interpret after each structure has been mapped. No GPS. No side image. Anchor instead of spot lock. Run the smaller Spoonplugs in the shallows first, without the depth finder - the way most of us ‘old timers’ probably learned. If you do all this for a season, focusing on just one lake and one structure at a time, you’ll ultimately accelerate your learning and understanding compared to the guys who just use technology to shortcut their way to success.

[CHAMP]

That's a good looking res. wish it were closer to me . Hope it has decent water color. When you are actually fishing it DO NOT OVER LOOK THE RIP RAP AT THE DAM AND CAUSEWAY!

[Steve Craig]

Mike,
After looking over the map of this lake, I agree with Champ.
The Dam has a fantastic bar right in the middle of it and alot of good rip rap to troll.
Google Earth shows pretty good water color, but hard to tell without being there.
The big Causeway is another good looking structure for sure.
Alot of good features off Elder Island and Little Elder Island is even better.
That big Arm coming in from the North has some really good looking stuff in it.
Several nice smaller bars close to the Main Channel as well, that need checking out.
If this lake has good color, I would spend the rest of the year on it if i were you.

I would do nothing but Map each and every one of these spots before ever wetting a line.
Thats usually what i do on a new lake. I recall mapping a 2000 acre Reservoir a few years ago and it had 18 really good structures.
6 hours later, i was done. Came back the next day and fished it. caught alot of fish.
Years ago I made it my goal to not spend more than 20 minutes or so mapping any structure, unless it was a huge thing.
To me working out and Mapping is the fun part of Spoonplugging! Or as Buck used to say, putting in his "back pocket".I love the challenge of a new lake. Always looking for new water.

[TN_Explorer]

I wrote a long thoughtful and eloquent reply, but it disappeared into the ether, so I will just say thank you to all here on this forum. Going to sign off and get to work now.

Cheers,
Mike

[CHAMP]

Here's a tip for all the guys that say they somehow lose their posting. After you are done typing it and b4 you hit the submit button take your mouse and highlite what you have typed then copy it. If some how you lose your post simply open another window and paste it in.

[John Bales]

Champ........... Call me........ John........260-854-3921