deep hole guideline

[joseph radunz]

First off let me say I’m in for getting the break line club going again, always enjoyed them.

Because of this thread I rewatched the meeting that yaintdeadyet posted, which brought up a few questions for john.

John when fishing these deep holes are you primarily fishing the edges of the holes facing the structures present ? Or do you fish the edges all the way around the hole? Or are you trying to cover the entire thing? I assume it depends on the size of the hole. I would guess if it’s a small hole you would want to check the whole thing but what if the hole was on a very large lake and the hole itself was several acres in size? Does the size of the hole affect how you go about presenting your lures, as in - would a guy ever want to try trolling to cover more ground in a large hole? I know at that time of the year the water is too cold to get a bass to hit on the troll usually so are we limited to the cast as the best presentation? Sorry for the barrage of questions, you just got me thinking.

Joe

[Sonny]

As i recall, Don says, he only fishes deep structure, not deep water. I do not recall any mention of trying to find them not relating to structure. Someone may enlighten me if i forgot something or misinterpreted the question.


Sonny

[John Bales]

Joe, I assume you are talking about the late fall but I can talk about both. At ice out, the only time we do all of our casting in the deepest section of the holes is when the holes are very small and can be covered with one or two anchoring positions. Everything is done by casting directly after ice out. This works best on lakes with a little color and a shallow weedline where there is little or no chance of the fish living in the weeds. If there is a deep weedline, that has to be checked also. The action that takes place right after ice out only lasts for a short period and they are out of their winter spots and somewhat scattered after that.
In the late fall right before ice up, we can still catch the bass on the troll down to about 45 degrees but after that, it seems like casting is better. You have answered most of your own questions already. I can tell by your good questions. Every lake is different as far as how much area we have to cover to check out the deepest breaklines and out into the deepest water in the area. It is so much easier to locate and catch the bass when the deepest sections of the holes can be covered by one or two anchoring positions. When the deeper sections of a hole covers a large area, it is difficult and almost impossible to find them on the cast. Lucky for us, if we have been doing our homework and have been trolling all the deeper breaklines and catching them lets say from 20 to 30 feet deep , then you can figure that they wont be far from those areas when it comes time to go to the cast. Sometimes it is better to spend your time on the deepest breaklines you can identify instead of running out into no mans land if that area is too large. Late fall when the thermocline drops below 20 or 25 feet is one of my favorite times of the whole fishing season. I don't remember which lake in the chain I looked at but it is on the Minnatonka chain. All of the deep holes in one or two of these lakes are very small and worth a look this time of year. Take a look at them and you will know exactly what I am talking about. Every lake is different in what the fish do seasonally but the fish all go deeper in the late fall. Your trolling on the deeper breaklines just above the thermocline will give you all of the answers you are looking for in the last couple of weeks before ice up. You know you are fishing the right breakline when the fish are all piled up on it. The deeper the breaklines are, the harder it is sometimes to get them to take. Sometimes you need to check out the next shallower breakline where the fish are a little more active or check the shallower one first , then the next and then go back to the first one. Hope that makes sense. John

[John Bales]

I learned this from Frank Hamill. If you have covered all the breaklines and have not caught the fish and need to go out beyond that point(Buck says dont), let depth be your guide. I have caught many groups of adult fish out beyond the final identifiable breakline where not many ever venture. Think of it this way. Buck and everyone else that has taught spoonplugging has had trouble getting most just to get good at the basics. Mr. Perry never talked much about what else is out there beyond the normal because most cannot do it anyway.
Frank brought this up also. If the fish are in the sanctuary and become active, are they catchable at that particular time?
At lake Erie, our best catches are directly into the deepest water available. There is no structure near it. Would that not be your final pass? Would you not go there? There is a lot to learn and every body of water is a little different. Maybe thats why the learning never stops. John

[Steve Craig]

John
What Frank taught you is exactly what Jerry Borst taught me! These days, if no fish are caught on the deeper breaklines, He taught me to spend ONLY a small amout of time checking the deepest water in the hole or if on a Reservoir, the deepest water hole in the channel. But NOT to spend a whole lot of time doing so. A guy can waste too much valuable time out there, when it is sometimes better to just wait for the fish to come to you.

[John Bales]

Here is one for you to think about. Page 131 in the green book. " The next situation shows a school of bass with their home area on a clean spot out in the middle of a channel, or a hole that is 40 feet deep. The clean spot is surrounded by quite a large area of 40 foot of water, giving it a saucer like condition. In this case, you would most likely find it necessary to fish straight down under the boat." This is what we know. Buck found a clean spot in the middle of a channel. This spot is surrounded by quite a large area of 40 ft of water. No mention of a change of depth here. Sounds like everything around the hard spot was at a similar depth. So why was he out there? You know he found the hard spot by trolling but why did he go out there if there were no structure? In order for him to fish vertically, the spot would have to be known exactly for him to put a lure in the correct spot. He knew exactly where it was. I would guess that this particular spot in the channel was located in an area of current,maybe at a bend in the channel, and Mr. Perry knew that somewhere in the deepest part of the channel might be a clean hard spot swept clean from the current.
It is easy to read past some of Buck's material and think that this section or subject doesn't have anything to do with my situation. The guys that fish natural lakes might not pay attention to the material that is associated with reservoirs. I get that. All of the material must be studied and some things you need to stop and question. The things you don't experience, you can't completely understand. Mr. Perry said to fish all types of waters, during all seasons and for all species. If you only fish natural lakes ( which are easy and cut and dried), go fish anywhere on the Tennesse River and you will find out what you don't know real quick. There is very little thinking that must go on when fishing natural lakes. You go out and fish what is there. In reservoirs, everything that is there has been created by current. You must know what water does when it runs in a straight line for a distance and then it is obstructed. This is what creates the structures and where each takes place, they are all different. After you find one, then you can start to visualize how the current created the fishing spot. Some of the best satisfaction can be had by fishing new waters and making a great catch on the first day. John

[John Bales]

One more.............. Every one of our big musky over 50 inches were caught in and around the deepest water in an area and none of them were even close to the base breakline which is at 28 feet. And all were caught bumping the bottom. Just another time we used depth as our guide out beyond the final breakline. John

[Team9nine]

Here is one for you to think about. Page 131 in the green book. " The next situation shows a school of bass with their home area on a clean spot out in the middle of a channel, or a hole that is 40 feet deep. The clean spot is surrounded by quite a large area of 40 foot of water, giving it a saucer like condition. In this case, you would most likely find it necessary to fish straight down under the boat." This is what we know. Buck found a clean spot in the middle of a channel. This spot is surrounded by quite a large area of 40 ft of water. No mention of a change of depth here. Sounds like everything around the hard spot was at a similar depth. So why was he out there? You know he found the hard spot by trolling but why did he go out there if there were no structure? In order for him to fish vertically, the spot would have to be known exactly for him to put a lure in the correct spot. He knew exactly where it was. I would guess that this particular spot in the channel was located in an area of current,maybe at a bend in the channel, and Mr. Perry knew that somewhere in the deepest part of the channel might be a clean hard spot swept clean from the current.
John

...And this type of "interpreting" of everything Buck wrote is the most interesting part of Spoonplugging for me. So many times it's been written to "not go out there," yet as you point out, there was obviously more he knew that he didn't spend a lot of time writing about. I'm sure he had good reason for this, but it still leaves open a lot of possibility yet for Spoonpluggers willing to dig deeper and continue learning.

Another example of this for me was Buck's reprinted article in this month's National Newsletter. I read everyone else's contributions first, not getting around to Buck's story for several days. What a mistake. When I first read it, my jaw about hit the floor. I've since reread it a dozen times or more, analyzing every word. Yes, Buck talked a bit about live bait and "slower" fish presentations in the green book, but it was never really talked about there, or in his articles, that very slow presentations on the troll (drifting, etc.), especially with bait (live or dead), were a final and "acceptable" option before going to the cast. Yet this explains and puts into place so many things I've experienced on the water, or seen others experience, and fills in a major "hole" in my overall understanding of Spoonplugging. Everything from Jim and Casey's nightcrawler bottom bouncing for walleyes this summer, to Jim Bishop's "spider-rigging" approach to crappie (National Newsletter); My experience with dragging crawlers on jigheads for walleye - that article even covered your (John's) tiny plastics near deadsticked this winter. It was such an eye opener! Just an amazing piece of writing for me that I never quite made the leap intuitively to figure out on my own, where it all fit in the bigger Spoonplugging picture. It really just shows how Buck had EVERYTHING all figured out long before all the "popular" fishing techniques got plastered in the pages of magazines.

[joseph radunz]

So here’s where I’m at, several times and I mean several, last year while working an area of a lake myself and whoever has been with me(mostly my brother who also has been studying spoonplugging for some time now) have worked structures top to bottom every speed imaginable and didn’t make contact with more than a straggler or two. Now I know we should sit at the contact point and wait for them to move but being that we aren’t exactly patient type people (we’ve always felt that we should make something happen instead of waiting for something to happen to you) our conversations have lead to “they have to be stacked up out there somewhere.” As in out in the basin beyond the base break line. Thus the question- is it advantageous to put a lure down “out there”. The line of thought being that there must be something they are relating to beyond the base or we would have made contact. Follow the statement- if your following the guidelines and your not catching fish your not fishing deep enough. John you say let depth be your guide. Depth being the DEEPEST water in the area? There is deeper water beyond the base break line in the situation I’m talking about.
Thanks for the great insight and great discussion. I appreciate everyone’s advice.
Joe

[Steve Craig]

Letting depth be your guide once you run out of recognizable breaklines, breaks, etc., is exactly what we are talking about here. That being said, remember, that speed control is still a must.
Buck also said that many times IF, you can put that lure right in front of the bass, he MIGHT/MAY take it. But you and I must STILL know WHERE to put that lure, and still move it at a particular speed in order to make him take it.

Last year we had a very good example of this. I was casting a Jigging spoon to a school of Smallmouth in very deep water. We had the spot located, but I was the only one catching them out of 3 guys casting to that "spot". The other two fellows, were casting the same size and weight of lure, but couldnt get one to take their lure. The were jigging the lure once it hit the bottom. I started out that way, but wasnt catching anything. At that point I let my lure set for a count of one before ripping it off the bottom. NOTHING.
then I let it set for a count of 2 and BINGO! Fish after fish. Later that afternoon, doing that speed, produced nothing, and I went back to the jig and rip, and I was back in business the rest of the day. This school of fish was in 63 feet of water. Very deep for this species, usually. But they were away from the base breakline, and i later saw on my meter a hard spot that showed up on my finder as a bright spot in an otherwise muchy area.

On another time here in AZ, on Lake Roosevelt, I had located a nice school of bass in 32 feet breaking into 80 feet on a big side feeder creek. After catching several, on the troll and several doubles, ( my wife was with me), we lost the school. I then went out into that 80 foot area, and found a small depression in 82 feet. I threw a marker just beyond it, anchored , and we cast some3/4 ounce jigs to the spot. My wife caught the first one, then another, then another, and I couldnt by a fish. I finally saw what she was doing. While I was hopping my jig, she was simply dragging hers across that little depression. I did the same thing and caught 3 more before they shut down.

So yes, I used Depth as my guide, but Speed control took the fish.

[joseph radunz]

Steve,
I totally understand what you are saying about the speed control being just as important as the depth control and you are a hundred percent correct, we may have been off just that smidge on the speed control that caused us not to trigger the strike. I have seen it a million times where one guy in the boat is hammering them and the other guy can’t seem to buy a hit. Most times I have to give my partners a cadence of some sort, once the correct speed if found, on the cast. Anyway, thanks again for the advice.

Joe

[John Bales]

Joe, You hit it on the head. When you are not catching fish,you are not fishing deep enough. But then you also have to ask yourself if your depth and speeds were correct as you went about your checking. It could be that the fish are there where you were checking but just not real active. Many times the casting with the jump type lures will make the catch on a day that they are not on fire. Jump type lures are a big part of my fishing, especially early and late(cold water).
I will have to say, most everything that I know has been learned from someone else. Either from the book, being around Mr. Perry at the outings and especially from Frank Hamill. Frank was way different from anyone I have ever met. He wanted nothing but the biggest fish from any body of water that he fished. I was with him on Pickwick, Lake Chickamauga, and got a lot from him on the Florida lakes. He fished deeper than anyone else and he always was the one that caught the biggest fish. Here is one to remember. The older a fish becomes, the more reluctant he is to move towards the shallows. The guy who thinks like that and fishes like that will get the biggest fish but will spend a lot of days with nothing to show for it. Thats just the way it is.
And yes Joe, it is the deepest water in the area that you are fishing is what you are looking for to guide you when going deep.
There are opportunities to make a great catch at times when going out beyond the breaklines we use to guide us in our fishing. Buck tell us if we have nothing to guide us , don't go out there. This is a good idea for those who are having trouble just doing the basics and learning to catch fish with some consistency. On the other hand, if you feel like it is time to get a little better and go out a little deeper when you are not having success on the shallower stuff, then you only have something to learn.
Late fall on our lakes is the best time to venture out there on the deeper breaklines, after the thermocline drops or is gone. One of the most fun times of the year and you are all alone.
Strange as it seems, in every instance where Frank or Buck has given me something to work on, it was always at some kind of outing. Outings give a person a chance to ask questions and get answers and then go to work on improving yourself. Frank opened my mind to what is available in some fishing waters and reminded me what a small fishing world I lived in. When you fish the same waters all the time, you limit your ability to think about all the different fishing situations you will face on other type waters.
I could talk about many places and times that we have caught fish deeper than most will venture but every place is different. In all of Bucks material , he never talked about one particular body of water but gave us the knowledge we need that will work in all waters. The desire to learn will be up to you. John

[Steve Craig]

" The guy who thinks like that and fishes like that will get the biggest fish but will spend a lot of days with nothing to show for it."

Tell me about it! LOL!
I would rather spend an entire day trying to catch that monster fish, and come home empty, than catching 3-5 limits of the smaller fish from a spot. (Well maybe this isnt true with Smallmouth!, as I have a thing for them!) Probably the reason I come home empty so often!

I guess after a guy is catching limits, he automatically is drawn to trying to learn more about that big fishes, deep water home and where and how to catch him.
It is a part of me that is driven to do these days. I just cant not go out there deeper, looking around, and trying to figure the situation out. But a guy HAS to come back to the Guidelines when things arent working out and start over through out the day.
It is simply a thing I have to do now. I have this drive to learn more and more. Just the way I am built, I guess.

Like Brian said in an earlier post here, Bucks article was spot on(again!) and I believe it applies even more so these days than it did back in 1981 when he wrote it. Reservoirs are getting older, getting clearer, and fish are not coming as shallow as they used to. It is even more imperative that we learn and get better at deep water, deep structure interpretation.

Anyway, I loved your post!

[joseph radunz]

No shortage of desire here, I’ve always said fishing is my passion, my wife classifies it as “obsession”. To may toes, ta ma toes. I’m picking up what’s being put down here - get my butt to an outing. Roger that.

Joe